The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

1. Questions to the First Minister

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Good afternoon and welcome to this afternoon's Plenary meeting. The first item this afternoon will be questions to the First Minister, and the first question is from James Evans.

Recycling in the Workplace

James Evans AS: 1. Will the First Minister provide an update on the changes to recycling in the workplace? OQ60129

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, workplace recycling regulations will require all workplaces to separate key recyclable materials, as households already do across most of Wales. Provided the regulations are endorsed by the Senedd, they will come into force in April of next year.

James Evans AS: Thank you, First Minister. As you alluded, those regulations will come in on 6 April next year. I met with a number of businesses in my constituency who are concerned about this, because they are concerned that, with the bins that are going to be required, they won't have the space to put them in their premises. And I also met with some recycling companies as well, who are concerned about the number of additional lorries that they're going to have to put on in, especially, rural areas, to pick all this waste up, which will be detrimental to the environmental challenges that we currently face.The consultation did ask for a phased approach to the implementation of this, so I'm just wondering will the Welsh Government look at this again and work with the recycling industry to make sure there is no disruption to businesses in my constituency.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, over a quarter of the businesses in the Member's constituency have their waste collected by Powys council, and their trade waste services already collect material separated in the way that will be required for all businesses. And Powys's trade waste service operates in all parts of the county, and does so very successfully. So, I am quite sure that businesses will adapt to the new regulations, because, actually, the new regulations are good for businesses as well, Llywydd. They will result in significant cash savings for businesses, and they will, instead of throwing things away and to landfill, become a resilient supply of high-quality recycled material going back into the economy. So, businesses will find that they have a resource that they can use commercially, rather than having to pay for it to be disposed in a way that we know is not consistent with our environmental obligations or ambitions.
We listened during the consultation, Llywydd, to the calls for phasing. There will be a phased approach to small electronic and electrical goods, and there will be a phased approach to textiles—two years in the first case, three years in the second—to make sure that businesses can prepare, and that there is the infrastructure there to make sure that those goods can be successfully recycled.So, as part of our circular economy, I am quite sure, Llywydd, that businesses in the Member's constituency will be playing their part.

Carolyn Thomas AS: I'm proud to say that, through partnership working with the Welsh Government, local authorities and residents, we are the third best at recycling in the world. It's brought a culture change, leading children and adults to think about the environment and the amount that we do waste as a country. The valuable recyclates can be reused, and it's brought businesses to Wales. And the food waste we collect creates energy as well. It's been used for electricity, and it's also used as liquid fertiliser, so win-win all round.First Minister, would you agree with me that it's disappointing that the Prime Minister has scrapped what he calls the 'burdensome' recycling schemes in England, and will you commit to working with local authorities in Wales so that we can continue on our path to a more sustainable future in Wales?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I completely agree with Carolyn Thomas that the success we've had in Wales has been the result of a partnership between the Welsh Government and the ambitions of our local authorities. And, as the Member knows, recycling rates in Wales are already significantly ahead of where they are in England, and our ambitions for the future are well ahead of the ambitions in England as well. So, the Prime Minister's decision to pull back from recycling in England is even more disappointing, but you don't need me to tell you that, I know. Here is the director of the Environmental Services Association—this is the trade body that operates in the waste sector—and this is what he said about the Prime Minister's decision, Llywydd:
'Scrapping these reforms puts at risk the potential for billions of pounds worth of investment by our sector in new green infrastructure and will lead to England falling behind its devolved neighbours in Wales and Scotland who are pursuing a more progressive policy agenda for recycling and waste, with Wales in particular demonstrating what can be done with the right policy direction and clarity.'
Well, I think that's a very powerful endorsement of the approach that's been agreed across the Chamber here in Wales, and, of course, we're determined to go on adopting it into the future.

Poverty

Sioned Williams AS: 2. How is the Welsh Government supporting families with children in poverty? OQ60111

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Sioned Williams for the question, Llywydd. While the UK Government increases child poverty in Wales, we do everything we can to reduce it. Despite the extraordinary pressures on our budgets, we will in this term have expanded our childcare offer, provided universal free school meals to all primary school pupils, and increased the level of the education maintenance allowance.

Sioned Williams AS: Thank you, First Minister. Free school meals to all primary children, as a result of the co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru of course, make a huge difference to families with children in poverty and, according to the Children's Society, are worth much more to families than the cost of the meal to the Government. The income threshold for eligibility for free school meals is still in place, of course, in the secondary sector, and has remained at £7,400 since its introduction in April 2019. This threshold means that thousands of children who come from families on incomes low enough to qualify for universal credit, but that don't qualify for transitional support, miss out, and the threshold also acts as a poverty trap for families. Do you agree, First Minister, that getting rid of that threshold would give some peace of mind to families that their children could access free meals once universal credit has been rolled out to everyone, and when the transition period comes to an end, and that it would reduce costs and increase income for families? The cost to the Welsh Government, according to the Children's Society, would be some £4.29 million in addition per annum, but, for families with children in poverty, and for us as a society, it would be worth so much more.

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I thank Sioned Williams for those supplementary questions. Everything in my original answer was part of the agreement between the Government and Plaid Cymru, and of course we are eager to press ahead with what we have agreed to do already. If we have the budgets available in the future, there are a great number of things that we'd like to do to help families, particularly where children live in poverty. At present, we are focusing on what we have agreed to do during this term, and to do everything that we agreed to do—that's where the budgets that we have will be prioritised. As to the future, it depends, as I said, on the funding that will be available to the Government, and, within the budget, there will be a number of things that we can do in the area of school food, and other things. But, at present, we're focusing on what we've agreed to do already.

Altaf Hussain AS: First Minister, in their seventh annual child and family poverty survey, Children in Wales highlighted the importance of public transport, to enable children and young people to get to school and parents to get to work, in alleviating child poverty. However, because of cuts to funding, a great many bus services in my region, South Wales West, are being reduced, changed or cancelled altogether. Families with children are amongst the most vulnerable people, and they rely on reliable and convenient bus services. This action by your Government will make life more difficult for them and will hinder attempts to alleviate child poverty. First Minister, will you commit to use part of the increased funding you receive as a result of the UK Government's investment in transport infrastructure to support bus services in Wales, to help these families get to school and to work?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I'm afraid the Member just lives in a parallel universe to the universe that the rest of us live in, and the universe that families live in as well. The same Children in Wales report pointed to the deliberate decisions of the UK Government that will result in hundreds of thousands more children living in poverty across the United Kingdom over the coming period. And the idea that there are lavish funds that come to Wales to enable us to do more than we are doing today is a simple act of fiction. As you will hear later this afternoon, the job of the Welsh Government has to be to live within the reduced means that are available to us and to protect the most vulnerable in the process. That is why we have, indeed, invested many tens of millions of pounds extra in supporting bus services during this financial year as a way of bridging the position we are in today and the position we will be in once the bus Bill, which will bring buses back under the control of the public interest in Wales, will allow us to create that sustainable future. That is the way in which we will help families, and we're certainly not helped by a UK Government that has crashed the UK economy and which reduces the amount of investment in public services year after year after year.

Jane Dodds AS: Good afternoon, First Minister. Many of us have different views and thoughts and ideas about what could help our poorest children, but one thing that we wanted to talk about was childcare and how important that is to all families, not just those living in poverty. In 2022-23, Wales saw the biggest increase in childcare costs in the UK, with some parents spending 60 per cent of their income on fees. This morning, the Welsh Liberal Democrats launched a childcare plan, a transformative plan to provide high-quality, affordable and accessible childcare that meets the needs of Welsh families and the Welsh language. Our plan looks at beating child poverty and ensuring that we open up the economic potential for women, care givers and all parents. Hard-working parents face impossible choices at times. They pay either astronomical fees that consume far too much of their family income or they leave the workforce altogether. And for children under the age of two there is nothing, and for disabled children there is very little and certainly very little choice. So, First Minister, I hope that if we send you the plan, you'll have a chance to read it. But would you agree with me that the period from nought to two is absolutely essential in terms of us helping us beat child poverty? Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, I thank the Member for those questions, Llywydd.

Mark Drakeford AC: Of course, I'd be keen to have a chance to read the plan, because I agree with what the Member has said, that childcare is a fundamental part of the way in which we address child poverty, but also to enable working families to be able to participate in the workforce and to make sure that quality care is provided for their children at the same time. The Member will know that already in this Senedd term we have extended our childcare offer—the most generous childcare offer anywhere in the United Kingdom—to families who are on the cusp of work, people who are in training or education and will soon be in the workplace. And, as a result of the agreement with Plaid Cymru, we are expanding childcare for two-year-olds, with a particular emphasis on finding more places for those families who wish to have childcare for their children through the medium of Welsh. There are thousands more places already as a result of the moves that were made in April of this year, and then further moves in September of this year, and we look forward to building on the success of that policy still further. If there are additional ideas that are, as the Member said, affordable and achievable, then, of course, we will be very keen to learn of them.

Alun Davies AC: It is, of course, exactly a year ago today that Jeremy Hunt reversed all the measures in Liz Truss's disastrous budget, and a year ago this week that Liz Truss was forced from office. But, in that year, we haven't heard a single apology from any Conservative Member for the impact that short-lived Prime Ministership had on the economy and on children and on the people of this country. [Interruption.] They're noisy enough now, Presiding Officer, but I'm yet to hear a word of apology from any of them.
First Minister, you are aware that Public Health Wales has produced a report detailing the impact of poverty on children, the impact on their learning, the impact on their health, the impact on their future. All of these issues are a consequence of poverty and a consequence of a broken Tory economy. It is important, First Minister, that, as we take decisions on the finances and funding of public services, we continue to protect children and families, and, as we protect children, we also explain why they are suffering poverty and the culpability of a UK Tory Government that doesn't care less about cold, hungry children who are unable to have the basics in life.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, Alun Davies does well to remind us of what was happening exactly a year ago today, when Jeremy Hunt reversed almost everything that was contained in the disastrous mini-budget during Liz Truss's brief regime. Of course, by the end of this week last year, she was no longer the Prime Minister. She enjoyed the support of Members of the Conservative Party here to the minute in which her fingers were prised off the knocker at 10 Downing Street. And, as you say, Mr Davies, not a single word of apology from those people who supported her through those disastrous days.
I read the Public Health Wales report, Llywydd. It was a report that concentrated on the impact on children's health in poverty. There are many shocking reports that we read—we were hearing of some of them earlier—but I was genuinely taken aback by what that report said, of families in Wales who cannot afford to keep their children clean, who cannot afford soap for them to be washed, who cannot afford detergent to make sure that their clothes are clean and that, when those children go to school, they sit alongside other children and suffer the stigma and the shame that comes with not being able to afford those basics of a decent life. To think that that is happening in Wales in the twenty-first century—I thought it was an authentically shocking finding. And those families know where the responsibility lies.

Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Questions now from the party leaders. The leader of the Welsh Conservatives, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew R.T. Davies AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. First Minister, last week, there were reports about lung cancer screening and the small trial that is currently going on in the Rhondda, sponsored by Tenovus, the cancer charity. In other parts of the United Kingdom, there is a comprehensive screening scheme in place, and, by 2025, 40 per cent of the population in England will benefit from that screening, and, by 2030, 100 per cent of the population will benefit from it. We know from the evidence that's emerging that stage 1 and stage 2 cancers have been identified far earlier because of that screening, as opposed to, sadly, in Wales, when it comes to lung cancer, many stage 3 and 4 cases are presenting, which, as we know, sadly, is not a good prognosis to receive.
The Government have accepted in principle the need to have lung cancer screening here in Wales. As many Members who sit on opposition benches will understand, accepting something in principle doesn't always mean that it's going to inevitably become a reality. Can you commit the Welsh Government today to meeting the timetable that other parts of the United Kingdom have adopted to bring that screening forward, because, as I said, we know what benefits are achieved by having that screening, and surely we must all try and sign up to reducing the mortality rate from lung cancer, which, regrettably, is among the worst mortality rates of any part of Europe?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I agree with the leader of the opposition about the importance of screening and the way in which it allows cancer to be detected at an earlier stage in the process. He is right to say that, following the recommendation of the United Kingdom screening committee, we have accepted in principle the recommendation that there should be a screening programme here in Wales.
The Member was wrong to say that there is a comprehensive service elsewhere in the United Kingdom because, as he then went on to say, the ambition in England is that there should be a full service in place by 2030, and there certainly isn't a comprehensive programme anywhere in the United Kingdom. And, indeed, if Members read the recommendation of the UK National Screening Committee, it says itself that there will need to be work done across the United Kingdom in order to be able to implement its recommendation. That's why there is a UK lung cancer screening feasibility group set up, and we are members of that feasibility group. So, we are planning for the future. The results from the Cwm Taf Morgannwg pilot will be important to us in doing that.
You have to be able to build up a service of this sort, Llywydd; it cannot simply be put in place everywhere at once. We will want the most ambitious programme we can have in Wales, but it has got to be realistic as well. You need premises, you need staff, you need systems, you need equipment; all of that is being planned, and we're planning it alongside colleagues in England, Scotland and Northern Ireland.

Andrew R.T. Davies AC: The point I was making to you, First Minister, is that in England there is a journey that they are undertaking to hit, by 2025, 40 per cent of the population and, by 2030, 100 per cent of the population, and I would hope that the Welsh Government would sign up to such an ambitious route plan to deliver that here in Wales.
The Royal College of Emergency Medicine yesterday highlighted the breach exemption process that has been available to clinicians in emergency departments since 2011. Now, just before we started First Minister's questions, there was a statement issued by the health Minister identifying the Government view on their interpretation of the Royal College of Emergency Medicine's understanding—[Interruption.] Well, they're shouting 'facts'. I happen to think that a Royal College's evidence is strong evidence, and merits consideration and, ultimately, analysis so that we can understand whether the Government has been declaring the figures correctly when it comes to waiting times within our accident and emergency departments. Can you confirm this afternoon, First Minister, that the figures on breach exemptions are calculated for eight- and 12-hour waits, not just four-hour waits?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, there were very many questions in that. First of all, let me be clear: the evidence is as set out in the Minister's written statement. Somewhere, there has been a misunderstanding of the figures, but not by us. The figures that were provided to the Royal College have been misunderstood and misinterpreted. That may be a matter of disappointment to Members on the opposition benches, but I'm afraid that is the case.
Let me just repeat what the Minister's statement said:
'Welsh Government statisticians do not exclude clinical exceptions from the data'
that is received from the local health boards. We report that data. That is what was suggested was not happening; that is not the case. The data is collected and reported in the way we have always said. In line with the policy that has been in place since December 2011, clinical exceptions—. Clinicians decide whether or not somebody should be retained in an emergency department beyond four hours when it is in the interests of the patient to do so. As the letter of 9 December 2011 said, these principles are recognised and supported by the Royal College of Emergency Medicine.

Andrew R.T. Davies AC: My question to you was simple, First Minister, and I noticed you looked at the health Minister to see if you could get confirmation. I don't dispute that the patients turning up at A&E—and I don't think the Royal College of Emergency Medicine disputes that, obviously, these patients are captured as individuals who attend accident and emergency departments. My question to you was: once they go beyond the four-hour wait, are they captured in the eight- and 12-hour wait, which is a key gateway in measuring the flow through accident and emergency departments? You didn't answer that part of my question to you.
Because, when you look at the numbers, 45,000, according to the Royal College of Emergency Medicine, were not captured in the eight- and 12-hour figures in the first six months of this year. In the 10 years since these figures were brought in, 670,000 people have not been captured in the way the Welsh Government correlate these figures in the eight- and 12-hour waits. Now, can you confirm that those exceptions are captured by the eight- and 12-hour gateway? Because, if they're not, can you commit to making sure that the data does capture them and you address the concerns of the Royal College of Emergency Medicine to make sure our A&E departments are resourced to deal with the 45,000 that were captured in the first six months and the 670,000 over the 10 years since this guidance has been in place?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I do want to make sure that I've cleared up any confusion in the mind of the leader of the opposition. Not a single patient's care is affected by these figures—[Interruption.] No, no. No, I—

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Allow the First Minister to answer. First Minister.

Mark Drakeford AC: I will do my best to explain. Clinicians decide whether or not somebody needs to be retained in the A&E department or moved on to a different part of the system. There was a period in which, in order to beat the clock, the four-hour waits, we knew that people would be artificially moved out of the department so that they didn't score against a four-hour wait. Clinicians consistently said to us that that was not the right way for patients to be treated. But, if a clinician believed that that patient should stay in the accident and emergency department, that's where they should stay because that is—[Interruption.] I cannot compete.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: I do want the First Minister to be able to answer this question clearly without interruption or distraction. First Minister, carry on.

Mark Drakeford AC: To complete it, Llywydd, the reason for clinical exceptions is to make sure that the right decision is made about the patient, rather than about the way in which data is reported. To return to the leader of the opposition's question, the figures that I see routinely reported are at four hours and 12 hours. I'll ask the Minister whether there is information, management information, that records eight hours, but, routinely, we report what happens to patients at four hours and at eight hours—four hours and 12 hours; I beg your pardon. The Minister's statement, her written statement, is absolutely clear that, if there has been any misunderstanding of the data, the misunderstanding does not lie with the Welsh Government. We do not exclude clinical exceptions from the data reported and the data that we do report is comparable with data reported elsewhere, as we always have maintained.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Leader of Plaid Cymru, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you very much. The atrocities in Israel and Gaza continue to touch us all over a week after the Hamas attacks. Just as we united in condemning those appalling attacks, we must also unite now in calling for the preservation and respect of international law. There is never a justification for punishing a whole population as is happening in Gaza at the moment. We in Plaid Cymru—and I'm sure I speak on behalf of the whole Senedd—stand shoulder to shoulder with everyone in Wales who is concerned about loved ones in the middle east. We send our support to a vigil held in Cardiff this weekend, led by Rowan Williams, for the people of Israel and Palestine.
In Gaza, of course, there is a real humanitarian crisis, with the United Nations warning that asking people to move out of hospitals in northern Gaza is tantamount to a death sentence for them. Given the lack of medical supplies, fuel and water, will the First Minister ensure that the Welsh Government plays its part, like other Governments across these isles, by making a contribution, including a financial contribution, to that humanitarian effort in Gaza?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Rhun ap Iorwerth for those questions. As I said last week, I'm sure that everyone here in the Senedd remains very concerned about the situation in Israel and in Gaza as well.
I'm grateful to people like Rowan Williams and other leaders in the faith communities, who have come together to support people here in Wales with family members and other loved ones over in Israel and Gaza as well. Today, the Minister, Jane Hutt, has been talking to people in this area regarding whether it would be useful to draw people together, as we are doing in the faith communities forum that we have here in Wales. If there is more that we can do to help people here in Wales to cope with everything they're facing, of course, we will be eager to do so. But, things are moving so quickly every day, what we're trying to do is to stay with the people who have the responsibilities. We don't have responsibilities on the floor of the Senedd for overseas affairs, but we are trying to stay in contact with the people with those responsibilities in Westminster, in Government and opposition parties, to see whether there's anything that we can do, and we'll be eager to do it.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you, First Minister. Back to domestic affairs, now.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: We will have an opportunity later to look at how much grasp the Welsh Government has on its budgets. Since the summer, Ministers have been highlighting a £900 million hole that had apparently appeared in their finances. But with the Wales Governance Centre saying they had warned of a potential £800 million shortfall last year, one has to wonder why it seemed to come as a surprise. I'm concerned that not heeding warnings is a pattern.
The Royal College of Emergency Medicine says it frequently raised accident and emergencyunder-reporting with Ministers and officials. I'm afraid the response of Welsh Government to those comments by the RCEM are wholly inadequate. The Welsh Government has changed its story three times, with public confidence in its ability to run our most vital public services diminishing with every redraft. I have seen in the past few minutes another statement from the Minister, clarifying things from the Government's perspective. But I agree with the First Minister, it's not the figures that really matter, ultimately, it's patients, but does the First Minister agree with me that any explanation around figures does not take away from the reality faced by patients that A&E services the length and breadth of Wales are wholly unsustainable?

Mark Drakeford AC: First of all, let me correct the Member when he said that figures were under-reported. That is exactly what the written statement tells you is not the case. The figures were not under-reported, and the figures that we publish stand up to examination by independent authorities. So, let's be clear about that.
Let me agree with him that accident and emergency departments are under pressure throughout Wales, as they are throughout the whole of the United Kingdom. Despite that, the staff who work in them go on sustaining that service every single day. They see thousands and thousands of people every day of every week in Wales. It does not help them to describe what they do as 'unsustainable', because sustaining the service is exactly what they do. Now, they are under huge pressure in doing that, and we acknowledge that, and that is why we work with them through the new six goals to try to release some of that pressure, to make sure that people go to the right part of the system and are seen in a timely way and in the most effective place. But I do say to the Member that I don't think it helps people who work so hard every day to describe the service they provide in the way that he just did.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: It's staff that explain the service to me in that way so often, and it's the lack of new ideas on how to face up to the unsustainability issues within the health service that frustrates people so much. We need new ideas, and that's as true for the running of the NHS as the trains not running at all. Let me turn to trains. Week after week, it's cancelled trains, the wrong trains for cross-country journeys, multiple changes on straight-through services, standing room only, broken promises on the delivery of new trains. Not only do we not have the rolling stock, but the stock we have isn't rolling. And the response of the Deputy Minister on Twitter? 'I don't build trains.' It really isn't good enough for all of those facing challenges travelling on rail day in, day out. Will the First Minister admit that we are facing a real crisis in our rail service in Wales, and will he tell us what plan he has to get us back on track?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I think it would be helpful to Members here to hear the new ideas that the leader of Plaid Cymru talks about. If they were new ideas, we'd be very glad to hear of them, so maybe next time, he will treat us to a few of the ideas that he calls for. As for train services, it is true that by today we had hopedthat there would be 77 new CAF trains available in operation. Only 34 of those have been delivered by the manufacturer,and the Deputy Minister is right: the Welsh Government doesn’t manufacture trains, and the manufacturer has only delivered 34 of the 77 trains that they were contracted to deliver by today. Now, there are reasons why that is the case, but the practical impact of that is inevitably felt by Transport for Wales when they are scheduling their services.
The better news is that TfW are now accepting a new train from the manufacturer every seven to 10 days, so the pace by which those new trains are arriving has increased, and it's also the case, Llywydd, that services provided by Transport for Wales have improved since September of this year into October, and Transport for Wales remains confident that that improvement will be sustained through the rest of this calendar year and into 2024.

The Cost-of-living Crisis

Rhianon Passmore AC: 3. Will the First Minister provide an update on how the Welsh Government is supporting community groups in Islwyn through the cost-of-living crisis? OQ60134

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Rhianon Passmore, Llywydd, for that question. Amongst the ways in which the Welsh Government supports community groups is the provision of core funding to the Wales Council for Voluntary Action and county voluntary councils across Wales. That amounts to £6.98 million in the current financial year, an increase of 10 per cent on pre-pandemic levels.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Thank you, First Minister. Earlier this year, Newsquest Media Group Wales launched their inaugural Our Communities Together appeal, in partnership with Community Foundation Wales. As a result, community groups across Wales have been awarded grants totalling more than £1 million to help people through the cost-of-living crisis. The appeal by the Free Press Series and its sister publications—including Gwent’s own South Wales Argus—asked its readers and businesses and organisations to donate to a fund that would award grants to grass-roots charities across Wales, supporting the most vulnerable in our communities through the cost-of-living crisis.
Last week, the South Wales Argus announced the relaunch of the campaign after the £1 million grant landmark was passed, and Gavin Thompson, regional editor for Wales at Newsquest, said:
'When we launched this appeal we had no idea we would be able to hand out more than £1 million to community groups across Wales. I am so grateful to all those who have supported it, from individual donors to businesses and the Welsh Government.'
First Minister, would you join me now in congratulating all involved in Newsquest Wales's Our Communities Together appeal, and will you join me in Islwyn at a future date for a project that has benefited from such a grant? And can you articulate for the people of Islwyn and Wales why the work of Community Foundation Wales is so profoundly important?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for that, Llywydd, and I think she herself has already articulated the importance of the work of Community Foundation Wales because of the way in which it animates the contribution that volunteers in so many parts of Wales make to those local communities. The Welsh Government, of course, has been pleased to make our own contribution to the work of the Our Communities Together appeal, and I do congratulate the staff of Newsquest and Community Foundation Wales on the work that they do.
Their work, as Rhianon Passmore has said, Llywydd, has been there for over 20 years, funding organisations to help the most vulnerable in our society. It’s also played a really important part in the Nation of Sanctuary Croeso fund, and it’s currently involved in making sure that dormant trusts or foundations in Wales are identified and can be revitalised. In the work that it’s done to date, Llywydd, it has found 139 dormant trusts in Wales that have assets of nearly £5 million; £5 million that isn’t doing the work it was intended to do, and can now be revitalised. So, in all of those ways, the trust goes on making its contribution in Islwyn, and across the whole of our nation.

Laura Anne Jones AC: First Minister, the Welsh Conservatives have long supported workers, community groups and businesses being able to keep more of the money that they make. Instead, under your Government, residents and organisations are anxious over the prospect of more tax rises. First Minister, will you rule out any increases to business rates, land transaction tax and income tax in Wales for the remainder of this Senedd term?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, it's ironic that a Conservative Member should make that contribution on a day when the Institute for Fiscal Studies publish their green budget, and say that when her Government came into power, incomes across the United Kingdom were taxed at 33 per cent, and that by the time this Government finally leaves office, that will have risen to 37 per cent, the highest level of taxation of any period since 1945. An astonishing record, don't you think? A Government that she said is dedicated to leaving money in people's pockets will be taking more money out of their pockets than ever before. Is she proud of that record?

Affordable Social Housing

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: 4. How will the Welsh Government support the expansion of affordable social housing? OQ60092

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, we remain committed to delivering 20,000 social homes for rent during this Government term, underpinned by record levels of funding—almost £1.2 billion over the first four years of this Senedd term. And alongside new build, we've launched a range of other initiatives to deliver more social sector homes as quickly as possible.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Diolch, Prif Weinidog. I'm going to internationalise my supplementary as a quick nod to members who are with us today as part of international youth leaders, from Liberia, from Minnesota in North America, from Mexico, from South Africa, as part of the Taith programme. So, in internationalising my question, can I ask him—? My colleague Mike Hedges wrote a fascinating pamphlet back in March this year on co-operative approaches to housing that would be affordable and secure the tenure of people as well. We're trying hard in Wales, with the support of organisations like Cwmpas and Welsh Government funding, but he drew attention to places like Scandinavia and Denmark, but also worldwide examples where they've gone further, including in North America. I wonder, First Minister, how can we build on the few good—but they are few—examples in Wales of co-operative social housing, managed and owned by the people who live in them? How can we build on that and grow it to the scale we can see in other countries? Because we feel strongly, as co-operative as well as Welsh Labour Members, that this is part of the solution to people having secure tenure of their properties and to be able to run and manage it themselves and set the rents as well. How can we grow it?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, one of the ways in which we can grow it is indeed by learning from international experience. It is great to see people in the gallery associated through our Taith programme, making sure that young people in Wales have those opportunities to see the way in which other parts of the world approach some of the challenges that we face and they face as well.
The Member is right to say that the efforts that have been made to develop co-operative housing in Wales have not always led to the success that we would have wished. There is an example in my own constituency that was built as a co-operative development, where after only a few years, tenants reverted to the housing association that had developed the housing in the first place. But there are lessons to learn from that as well, about the way in which we approach the idea of housing built through co-ops or through community-led groups.
And the good news is, Llywydd, that we have a new wave of initiatives being led in different parts of Wales: the Solva community land trust, the Gower community land trust, the Taf Fechan Housing Co-operative in Merthyr—all of them initiatives designed to develop housing that will be run and managed by the people who live in them. The Welsh Government is looking to find new ways in which we can support that work. For example, we are finding new ways in which those groups can access our empty homes grant and the land and buildings development fund. So, we share an ambition to make sure that co-operatively run housing plays a bigger part in the way in which we provide those vitally needed social homes for rent in the future, but to do it in a way that is sustainably run by those people, and there are many lessons to learn from overseas in the way in which that can be achieved.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Well, let's have some reality here. Three decades of Welsh Labour, and what we have is house building targets consistently missed. We are now facing a definite housing crisis. We need 12,000 homesa year, yet this year you've only built 5,785. Despite your targets set over many years, you’ve missed them all. House builders tell me it takes about two to three years from planning to laying a single brick. Your planning service here in Wales is dismal. Your record provides clear evidence that we should have no confidence whatsoever. Forget your co-operative housing. We're supposed to be on target for 20,000 new low-carbon social homes for rent in the next three years. Given the higher costs associated with these builds, please would you, First Minister, explain how your UK parliamentary Member Keir Starmer mentions that ‘we are the builders’? Yet here in Welsh Labour, we have the building blockers. Wouldn't you agree with me that his statement at conference was misleading to say the least?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, it's being so cheerful that keeps her going, as they say. I can tell the Member that a small number of members of the public sent me a tweet by her leader. The tweet was apparently headed, 'Couldn't make it up’. The people who sent it to me asked whether irony had really completely deserted the Welsh Conservative Party, because making it up is what they do. She said to me that we missed our targets. Does she know that the affordable housing target that we set for the last Senedd term was not only met, but it was very significantly exceeded? We built more homes than we said we would in the last term, and that, believe me, is absolutely true. There is no ambiguity about it. The figures are there for anybody to see. We set the target, and far from, as the Member said, not meeting it, we exceeded it. We set a new target for this Senedd term—20,000 homes for social rent. It is an ambitious target, Llywydd. It's a particularly ambitious target given what has happened since that target was set in terms of inflation in that industry, new barriers caused by Brexit to the importation of necessary materials and so on. But we stick with that target because we know how important it is here in Wales, and everything that we do is designed not to undermine the target, but to deliver it.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Rather than complaining, I want to introduce a few ideas, if I may, on this topic. Of course, inflation and lack of funding is a clear barrier to the building of social housing and publicly owned housing, but following on from the example from the Member for Ogmore, I will also look at some international examples. In the Netherlands, the state there doesn't fund social housing at all, but rather funding for social housing comes from loans from two banks, which are under public ownership, with very favourable terms. In Ireland, credit unions lend funding to housing associations for house building. Does the First Minister, therefore, believe there's an opportunity here in Wales to use the Development Bank of Wales and/or partnerships with credit unions as a means of bringing new funding in for the construction of social housing and publicly owned housing?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Mabon ap Gwynfor for those questions. I do agree with him. We're lucky in Wales to have the Development Bank of Wales, and the Minister has asked them to do more work in this area. We do use the bank already, but if there are new possibilities that we can explore, then we are open to doing that. There are many lessons that we can try and draw from what they're doing in the Netherlands. Ministers from Ireland are visiting Wales on Thursday and Friday of this week, and we're going to meet them in north Wales. The success of the credit unions in Ireland is something that we can try and learn lessons from, and to do more with the people working hard in credit unions in Wales. So, where there are lessons that we can draw down in Wales, we will do so, and to do more with the agencies that we have here already.

The Rural Economy in Preseli Pembrokeshire

Paul Davies AC: 5. What is the Welsh Government doing to support the rural economy in Preseli Pembrokeshire? OQ60087

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for that question. We're making significant investments accross the rural economy, including in Preseli Pembrokeshire. For example, we are investing over £200 million in schemes to support the transition to the sustainable farming scheme, and to meet our climate change obligations.

Paul Davies AC: First Minister, earlier this month was the Welsh hospitality awards, and I'm sure you'll want to join with me in congratulating my constituent Andy Stirling, the manager of the Wolfscastle country hotel and spa, who picked up the highly coveted general manager of the year award. I'm sure you'll agree with me that the rural economy in Pembrokeshire relies on a strong hospitality industry. Sadly, recent figures from the international passenger survey tell us there were 33 per cent fewer inbound visitors to Wales in 2022 than 2019, and the amount they spent also dropped by 24 per cent. First Minister, these figures are worrying, and should these trends continue, it could seriously undermine the sustainability of the sector going forward, especially in places such as the ones that I represent. Therefore, First Minister, can you tell us what the Welsh Government is doing to improve the marketing of Wales as a holiday destination for overseas visitors, and can you tell us how the Welsh Government is specifically supporting rural hotels and accommodation providers, who have such an important role in the rural economy?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for those questions. I join with him in congratulating those at Wolfscastle hotel on their award. Of course Paul Davies is right to point to the importance of tourism to the rural economy and the economy of Pembrokeshire. I was at the Pembrokeshire show earlier this year, and was struck very much there by the strength of representation on the showground from representatives of the tourism sector.
I think we should take the figures from the international passenger survey for 2022 with some caution. The market is recovering from COVID; it's recovering from those many, many months during the preceding years where international travel wasn't possible, and we're not unique in seeing a slower recovery from that. But I think the recovery will come, and, of course, there are things that can be done to encourage visitors from overseas to come to Wales.
I commend to the Member the report of the Welsh Affairs Committee on this matter, which pointed to the failures of VisitBritain to promote Wales overseas. It's their responsibility and they're funded to do so; they're meant to represent Wales as well as other parts of the United Kingdom. The Welsh Affairs Committee, chaired by a colleague of his from west Wales, pointed to the deficits in the work of VisitBritain on behalf of Wales, and has asked for VisitBritain to appear in front of them again to set out what they intend to do to make good that deficit. We will work alongside them, with the campaigns that we operate as well, but we do need the assistance of those who are funded to do so.

Economic Development in Caerphilly

Hefin David AC: 6. What is the Welsh Government doing to support economic development in Caerphilly? OQ60133

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for the question. We are working with a wide rangeof partners, including Caerphilly council, to support businesses. The results are clear: between 2011 and 2021, the number of active businesses per head of population in Caerphilly has increased by 35 per cent. This is higher than the increase in Wales and in the UK over the same period.

Hefin David AC: I think, on a day when we've got some difficult news, this is a chance to recognise that there are some very good things going on in Caerphilly in partnership between Caerphilly County Borough Council and the Welsh Government. The success that the First Minister just referred to is because of the ambitious master plans and placemaking plans that will be affecting positively Caerphilly town, Ystrad Mynach and my home town of Bargoed, which is massively benefiting from the work that Caerphilly has done.
Caerphilly town, through partnership with the Welsh Government, Cadw and Transport for Wales, will have a new indoor market and contemporary well-being centre, and there are plans for a new public transport interchange. Bargoed saw a fantastic and well-attended May summer fair this year, which saw record footfall. People from across south Wales came to see what was happening in Bargoed. A Regionally Unleashed event was held recently, on 12 July, in consultation with the Cardiff capital region, and meetings this week are taking place in Bargoed to see what further enhancements can happen in that wonderful town.
Will the First Minister therefore reaffirm his commitment that the Welsh Government will support economic development through policies such as the Transforming Towns initiative and strategic infrastructure projects that are seeing huge benefits, such as the south Wales metro?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Hefin David for that. The Welsh Government certainly is committed to continue those policies and those funding sources. They work best where you have an ambitious partner on the ground, and I want to pay tribute to Caerphilly council for the way in which it has developed that Caerphilly 2035 placemaking plan set of proposals. And as Hefin David has said, Llywydd, we're already seeing the fruits of that work, with the plans for the new indoor market in Caerphillyand for the work associated with that in PentrebaneStreet. We talk a lot on the floor of the Senedd about the challenges facing the retail sector and town centres, and I've said, in a number of answers, that what you have to see is a mix of uses to revitalise those town centres, and that's exactly what we see in those plans: accommodation, business incubator spaces, opportunities for leisure, opportunities for retail, all coming together in a single planned development. The Welsh Government is very pleased to be providing £6.8 million as our contribution to those developments, and we intend to go on, as Hefin David said, making funding available to support town centres in Caerphilly and across the borough, but of course across the whole of Wales.

The Cost-of-living Crisis

Sian Gwenllian AC: 7. Will the First Minister outline how the Government will respond to the report by the expert group on the cost-of-living crisis in terms of alleviating poverty in Arfon? OQ60096

Mark Drakeford AC: Many of the recommendations in the expert group's report are already being developed. Together, they will help to alleviate poverty across Wales and in Arfon. The Government will also take the report into account as we prepare for next year's budget.

Sian Gwenllian AC: The expert group's report on the cost-of-living crisis does include important and practical recommendations for alleviating child poverty, an issue that affects every community in Arfon and is one of the issues that should be driving the work of all politicians who prioritise mitigating the current cost-of-living crisis, with over a quarter of our children living in poverty. Recommendation 6 in the report encourages the Welsh Government to introduce a child cost-of-living payment to low-income families who have children. Apart from the financial limitations that we are clearly facing at the moment, is there any other reason for not moving in this direction and introducing this payment that's been recommended?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Siân Gwenllian. I have had an opportunity to read a summary of the report, and it was very interesting and full of practical ideas to help people in Arfon. As I said in the original answer, we're still working on the report, with everything else we're doing in the area of poverty. We haven't turned our backs on anything in the report, but we're still working through it and everything that's in it. So, I can't go into too much detail today, but we do want to use the report, with local authorities, because there are a number of recommendations in the report for local authorities, to see how we can collaborate in order to have the impact on the lives of children in Arfon that we all want to see, I'm sure.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Finally, question 8, John Griffiths.

Lung Health Services

John Griffiths AC: 8. What steps is the Welsh Government taking to support lung health services? OQ60132

Mark Drakeford AC: We're taking wide-ranging action to support respiratory health in Wales. That includes a focus on accurate diagnosis, good condition management and service preparations for the winter.

John Griffiths AC: First Minister, as we heard earlier in your exchange with the leader of the opposition, far too often, lung cancer cases are detected at a later stage, when treatment is very difficult, and an effective, targeted lung screening system in Wales would go a long way to detecting those cancer cases earlier, allowing for effective treatment, and so saving lives. Would you agree with me, First Minister, that taking forward that sort of screening programme would make a significant contribution to tackling health inequalities in Wales, because we know that in our most deprived communities there is greater prevalence of lung cancer, and it is, in fact, a very significant part of why people in those communities die younger and have fewer years of healthy life?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, of course I do agree with John Griffiths that lung cancer does have a particular social class gradient and that a screening programme would help to address that. It would do so alongside all the other things that we are doing. Members will remember, I'm sure, from earlier discussions, that the number of people who are now referred in to cancer services on a precautionary basis has increased enormously in Wales since the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence changed its guidelines about five years ago. And the more people who come forward for consideration in the cancer treatment programme, the more people will be caught early in the way that John Griffiths has identified. And, of course, everything that we can do to persuade more people to give up smoking—the single greatest cause of lung cancer—and there have been enormous strides in Wales ever since the Senedd came into being, then that, alongside a screening programme, will have the impact that the Member points to this afternoon.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Thank you, First Minister.

2. Business Statement and Announcement

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The next item will be the business statement and announcement, and I call on the Trefnydd to make the statement—Lesley Griffiths.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch, Llywydd. There are no changes to this week's business. Draft business for the next three weeks is set out in the business statement and announcement, which can be found amongst the meeting papers available to Members electronically.

Darren Millar AC: Trefnydd, can I call for a statement from the Deputy Minister for Mental Health and Well-being on the action that the Welsh Government is taking to address problem gambling amongst children and young people in Wales? I know that the Welsh Government took the bold step of acknowledging that problem gambling is a public health menace and needs to be dealt with, and I was pleased to see that the chief medical officer has referenced this in his annual reports on a number of occasions.
Last week many Members of the Senedd met with YGAM, the Young Gamers and Gamblers Education Trust, a charity that's working with children and young people to address problem gambling and gambling harm, and the statistics, frankly, are pretty astonishing. We know that a third of 12 to 16-year-olds have actively been involved in gambling in the last 12 months, with 30 per cent of those gambling with their own money in the last year, and 70 per cent of teachers reported that their schools do not yet have a gambling harm prevention programme.Given that that is the case, and that there doesn't seem to be any significant action being taken to educate our children and young people across Wales about the dangers of gambling, I wonder whether we could have a statement on the work that the Welsh Government is doing around this?And, secondly, just in relation to this gambling issue, we obviously, as a nation, want to take advantage of the growth of the esports and gaming industry, as do other nations, and that is very important. But we also want a responsible esports and gaming industry, not one that promotes loot boxes and the kind of gambling that we've seen in that industry over the years. So, can I ask that the statement also covers that aspect of this particular problem? Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I think the Member raises a very important point, and gambling per se is something that the Welsh Government has been very concerned about. As you'll appreciate, a lot of the powers around gambling do rest with the UK Government, but the issue that you raise about the rise in gambling amongst our schoolchildren I think is very pertinent. I know the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language—it's something that he's looked at, and he'll be very happy to bring a statement forward. But it is important that we do get, within that statement, all the cross-Government work taking place.

Luke Fletcher AS: Could I please ask for an update on when Members can expect a written statement on the situation in Bridgend indoor market? I understand these things can take some time, but it has been two weeks since I originally asked in business questions, and, of course, it's a tough time for traders at the moment, a very anxious time, and any support that the Welsh Government may possibly be able to provide would be greatly welcomed.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I think a statement will come forward once those discussions between the Welsh Government and Bridgend County Borough Council in relation to the reinforced autoclaved aerated concrete that's been found there have been completed.

Mike Hedges AC: I'm asking for two Government statements, the first on river and sea pollution. I'm concerned about raw sewerage being discharged into rivers. My concern is mainly about the River Tawe, but, on an all-Wales basis, I'm concerned about any river in Wales that is having raw sewerage being put into it. I was recently contacted by a constituent, who said, 'I fell ill after swimming at Caswell bay, but Caswell is much cleaner than the sea at Swansea.' I think that is an indictment of the amount of pollution, mainly raw sewerage, that is ending up in the river.
The second statement I'd like to ask for is on the education of deaf children, including the importance of speech, sign language and lip reading—the statement to include deaf children's academic success and what is going to be done to reduce the difference in academic success between deaf children and non-deaf children at GCSE.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. In relation to your first request, the Minister for Climate Change will be bringing forward an oral statement before we finish for Christmas, so during this term.
And around the education of deaf children, the curriculum for Wales has been developed to be inclusive for all learners. BSL practitioners and other experts, including members of the deaf community, were involved in developing the curriculum for Wales guidance on making sure that we did design a curriculum that includes progression in BSL for deaf BSL users, as well as guidance for schools choosing to introduce BSL as a second, or a third, or even a subsequent language, going forward. Key parts of the curriculum are now also available in BSL, for practitioners to be able to use with learners, and also with their families. Resources are available for free on Hwb, the all-Wales learning platform, to help improve awareness of BSL among staff and learners. As the Member is aware, local authorities are responsible for ensuring that BSL is available to children who have been identified as requiring it.

Mark Isherwood AC: I call for two Welsh Government statements, the first on road safety for horses and riders in Wales. Due to an accident with a car, Debbie Smith from Penzance started the petition 'Pass wide and slow', in September 2015, to make it a legal requirement to drive past a horse wide and slow. This petition, which has raised over 148,000 signatures to date, was handed to the UK transport Minister in February 2016, and was debated in the UK Parliament in June that year. The idea of awareness rides located all around Britain then came into play, and earlier this month I joined Lyndsey Vaughan Jones at Clwyd Special Riding Centre for her pass-wide-and-slow ride, to raise awareness about passing a horse wide and safely, on foot, bike or in a car, to educate people on why to pass a horse safely, and to encourage riders to wear high-vis and to use a head camera to report to the police any incidents people may have whilst out riding, raising awareness and holding drivers accountable for their actions. I call for a Welsh Government statement accordingly, given the devolved aspect to this campaign now, and, as I say, the ride that occurred in Llanfynydd very recently.
I also call for a Welsh Government statement on support for the Iranian people in their struggle for a secular and democratic republic. A majority of Members of this Parliament, MSs, supported a statement on Iran, drafted by the Iranian Academics Association, which included,
'We stand in solidarity with the people of Iran in their desire for a secular and democratic republic'.
Last Wednesday I sponsored a meeting in the Senedd, with the Iranian Academics Association, entitled 'Conference on Iran: Free and Democratic Iran within reach', supporting their efforts in advocating the Iranian people's desire for a democratic republic. This included presentations by Iranian women, who comprise the majority of association members, and who both shared their own terrible personal experiences, and promoted Iran's viable democratic alternative, the National Council of Resistance of Iran—NCRI—its president elect, Mrs Maryam Rajavi, and her 10-point plan for the future of Iran, including freedom of speech, freedom of political parties, freedom of assembly, complete gender equality, an independent judiciary, and separation of religion and state, with freedom of religions and states. Given the support given to this by Members of this Chamber, I call for a Welsh Government statement accordingly.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. With regard to your first request around road safety and horse riding, I'm not aware that there's been any update on the guidance, but it might be better if you write directly to the Deputy Minister for Climate Change asking for an update. With regard to your second question, I think that is more a matter for the UK Government; it is a reserved matter.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Can I ask for an update from the health Minister on the Government's quality statement on respiratory disease? The end of November will mark a year since the quality statement on respiratory disease, and given the nature of quality statements, with their high level indicators of what good respiratory healthcare looks like, it's difficult to determine what progress has been made to deliver better respiratory health services since its publication. In order for us to more effectively scrutinise progress, and so that we can start seeing the improvements that are required, can we have such an announcement and a statement, please? And will the Minister consider developing an implementation plan to underpin the quality statement on respiratory care?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Well, I know this is something that the Minister for Health and Social Services has kept a very close eye on and she will be happy to bring forward a written statement.

Jenny Rathbone AC: I just want to associate myself with the remarks made by Darren Millar. Having read the gambling White Paper, I just think it is absolutely not fit for purpose. It's called 'High stakes: gambling reform for the digital age', but it simply isn't addressing the level of risk that's involved, not just for young people, but for anybody who has an addictive personality. It proposes a threshold of £1,000 for anybody losing money within 24 hours before any obligation on the gambling company.
Most of the harm that's being done is being done online or through advertising in high stakes places. The football industry seems to have been completely penetrated by the gambling industry. I wondered if we could have a statement from the Government on its position towards the gambling White Paper, given that this is not really something that we have the powers to control, given that online gambling is way the most pernicious part of this activity.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Well, you will have heard me say in my answer to Darren Millar that, whilst the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language is very happy to bring forward a written statement, it is important that we look right across the Government at what work we are doing in relation to that, and obviously there are aspects of it—and you've just referred to them—that are reserved matters for the UK Government. But I think it will be very important to make sure that we feed in all aspects of Welsh Government work in relation to what is a very, very growing problem and issue.

Natasha Asghar AS: Minister, plans to develop a new sport and community hub at Ponthir in my region are hanging in the balance. This is due to a lack of co-ordination and transparency from local authorities along with the Welsh Government's unhelpful community facilities programme. The volunteers behind this venture in Ponthir have worked hard securing funding and drawing up plans to turn this dream into a reality, which would offer huge mental health and well-being benefits to children and people of all ages across the region. The community facilities programme informed the hub that they would need to submit a brand-new application, because the original one, which was already approved, did not specify plans for a car park. If they do not submit an application now, the £229,000 grant funding from the Welsh Government, vital to the overall project, will be withdrawn and the plan will collapse and hundreds will have nowhere to play sports. The club have asked for funding to be delayed or put back into the next financial year, just in a bid to save the grant, yet the community facilities programme team have told them 'no' and has been incredibly obstructive and unhelpful. From what I can tell, they appear determined to put obstacles in the club's way at every available opportunity. Common sense really does need to prevail in this, Minister, because it would be a travesty to see this community project fail because of the Welsh Government's unwillingness to help. So, with the deadline approaching, time really is of the essence, so I would appreciate an urgent statement from the Welsh Government on what it will do to make sure this project goes ahead without any more delays or issues. Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, I don't think it's a matter of unwillingness to help. The fact that we have the community facilities programme, which has benefited so many of our communities and constituencies and regions for many years, absolutely shows that the Welsh Government is willing to help. You must appreciate there are very stringent criteria attached to all of these bids; this is public money after all. I'm not aware, obviously, of the one case that you recommend. I think it would be better to write directly to the Minister for Social Justice.

Jane Dodds AS: Good afternoon, Minister. I just really wanted to raise with you, actually, the issue of the Habitat Wales scheme. Many farmers have raised issues, I think, with many of us in the Siambr around the scheme, and whilst we all understand that the scheme is transitional, there are concerns around the long-term commitments that may well be inherent within the application form. In the regulations, for example, it states:
'By including land under this category, applicants are potentially committing to the long-term habitat management of this land'.
The regulations and the application form are quite complex and quite long, and I just would ask the Minister if there's an opportunity—. Could you confirm that, if applicants submit an application, they have the opportunity later on to amend that application, should they realise that, actually, the circumstances aren't what they envisaged? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. You are quite right, it is a transitional scheme. The reason I've brought forward Habitat Wales is because Glastir contracts have to end—and everybody knew they had to end—at the end of this year. So, this is a transitional scheme ahead of SFS, because what I've said all along is that, when BPS and Glastir contracts ended, the main source of support for our farmers will be the sustainable farming scheme.
The short answer to your question is that once an expression of interest is submitted, we won't allow any changes to the information in the application. If there was a mistake or if, for instance, land was included that they may later wish to remove, the EOI must be withdrawn and then resubmitted with the correct information.

Gareth Davies AS: Can I ask for a statement from the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language this afternoon on the news that Rhyl High School is reducing its teaching hours to complement late attendance from pupils? It came to the surface last Wednesday, and I note that there are not questions to the education Minister until 25 October, which is next Wednesday. I have requested a meeting with the headteacher, Claire Armitstead, on this matter and hope to meet her soon, but can I have a statement from the Welsh Government outlining their position on this matter and their response to this news, which is of grave concern to my constituents? Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Well, I think you've done absolutely the right thing in arranging to meet the headteacher. Obviously, this is a matter also for Denbighshire County Council. There is no one solution, I think, or one group or one sector that can address an issue around this, and you'll be aware that the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language is establishing a national taskforce, going forward. That will provide strategic direction.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: I thank the Trefnydd.

3. Statement by the Minister for Finance and Local Government: Update on 2023-24 Financial Position

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The next item will be a statement by the Minister for Finance and Local Government, which is an update on the 2023-24 financial position. The Minister to make her statement—Rebecca Evans.

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you. I am pleased to be able to provide the Senedd with an update on our current financial position this year. This follows the First Minister’s written statement in August where he indicated that work would take place over the summer to address the impact of our budget being worth around £900 million less than when it was set in 2021.
We are currently in the second year of a three-year financial settlement. Our revenue budget increased by just 5 per cent this year, against inflation running at 8 per cent on average so far this year.I am grateful to Cabinet colleagues for working hard in order to address these pressures, caused by the triple impact of inflation, the impact of more than a decade of austerity on public services, and the ongoing consequences of Brexit. These, combined with the UK Government’s economic mismanagement, including the disastrous mini-budget, have combined to place the devolved Welsh budget under unprecedented pressure.
As a Cabinet, we have been guided by a number of clear principles in coming to the decisions that we have, including protecting front-line services as best we can, supporting households who are hardest hit by the cost-of-living crisis, and prioritising jobs. I am pleased to report to the Senedd that, through very careful financial management, guided by our principles and values, we have succeeded in putting together a package of financial changes that minimises the impact on people and the Welsh public services on which they rely, while enabling us to meet our objective to mitigate the extraordinary pressures on our budget.
As my colleague the health Minister has set out, the NHS in Wales is facing the toughest financial pressures in recent history. This is because of the impacts of persistently high inflation on costs, including energy and medicines and pay-related pressures, not to mention more than a decade of underfunding of public services by a succession of UK Conservative Governments. It is also dealing with ongoing COVID-related pressures and rising demand in both planned and emergency care. In recognition of these interrelated impacts, through this package of financial changes, we will provide an extra £425 million to support the NHS this year. But, despite this additional support, it is clear that health boards will still need to make some extremely difficult decisions, both this year and in the next financial year to balance their budgets.

Rebecca Evans AC: In addition, we have made a decision to protect the revenue support grant to local authorities, which pays for schools, social care and much else besides, recognising the pressures on those services. Rail services are facing significant cost pressures, stemming from the pandemic and changing patterns of use. We've been able to increase the budget for Transport for Wales by £125 million in this year to safeguard services for passengers and to continue the programme of transformation currently under way. We should not underplay the challenges faced by these services, and others besides, but, as a Cabinet, we have sought to address these as directly as we possibly can in the current financial circumstances. I want to thank our co-operation agreement partners in Plaid Cymru for the positive and pragmatic way in which they've approached this.
The package of financial changes we will now implement has a number of components, and I will deal with each of them in turn. Every ministerial portfolio was asked to make a contribution to meeting the pressures that we face on a cross-Government basis. To have the minimum impact on services, this is being done by reprioritising spend and activity as much as possible, rather than cutting programmes as a whole. As a result, the departmental changes to revenue budgets in-year are as follows, and the changes are broadly proportionate to the size of the departmental budgets as a share of the overall Welsh budget. The education and Welsh language budget will be revised down by £74.7 million. The finance and local government budget, excluding the RSG, will be revised down by £28.5 million. The economy budget will be revised down by £28.6 million. The rural affairs budget will be revised down by £17.3 million. The social justice budget will be revised down by £7 million. And the budget for the running costs of the Welsh Government will be revised down by £27.5 million. As I've set out, two portfolios will see increases. The health and social services budget will increase by £425 million, which will see investment in the NHS increase year on year. The climate change budget will increase by £82.6 million, which, alongside other savings within the portfolio, will enable £125 million of additional funding to Transport for Wales.
In order to meet our overall pressures, we will also need to make changes to capital budgets. The climate change capital budget will change by £37.7 million. The education and Welsh language capital budget will change by £40 million. The economy capital budget will change by £36.5 million. The rural affairs capital budget will change by £20.2 million. And the finance and local government and social justice capital budgets will also change by less than £10 million each, with health and social services capital remaining unchanged. I have set out the headline details of these changes in a document published today alongside the statement. The detailed changes will be reconciled in the normal way through the second supplementary budget, to be laid before the Senedd early next year.
We have made a formal request to the UK Treasury to switch some of our capital budget to revenue during this financial year to meet the inflationary pressures and to enable us to manage within our overall Welsh budget. To be clear, we are not requesting any additional funding, just the freedom to deploy our existing budget in a way that enables us to deliver our priorities without the artificial straitjacket of our current unsatisfactory fiscal framework. The UK Treasury agrees to capital to revenue switches for Whitehall departments every year, and, in the interest of fairness, should grant this request. I've discussed this directly with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury and made our position clear to him. The package also includes an expectation that consequentials will be made available from the UK Government during this year as a result of increased spending in England, most notably on NHS pay, and I will update the Senedd as soon as we have clarity on this. We will also be making up to £100 million available from our in-year reserves and the Wales reserve. Taken together, this package should enable us to operate within our overall budget this year, as well as meeting some of the specific pressures faced by our public services as a result of inflation and austerity.
Turning to the next financial year, I want to be clear with the Senedd. Our revenue budget is set to increase by just 2 per cent, and our capital budget will actually fall by 1 per cent. With inflation still stubbornly high, these pressures we have sought to address this year will be even more difficult next year, and we will simply not be able to do all of the things that we would wish to do. We will continue to make financial decisions guided by our principles and our values, protecting the people of Wales and Welsh public services as much as possible from the current pressures that we face.

Peter Fox AS: Thank you, Minister, for the statement. I want to begin by acknowledging again that governments across the world are facing difficult choices as a result of global events. I know also, from first-hand experience, that projected deficits present real challenges and insecurity to services and their users. However, we’ve got to be clear. It must be said that Wales is in its current financial situation as a direct result of extremely poor management and short-sighted decision making and planning, underpinned by a politically driven philosophy, leading to Wales being left incredibly vulnerable, especially to global economic changes. The fact that the Government only started focusing in any meaningful way on the projected position of their budget on 1 August beggars belief. At the end of last year we know that Wales Fiscal Analysis mentioned to the Government the possibility of this shortfall. They had a forecast of around £800 million then. They said the situation was predictable, as the inflationary pressures were there, and they were surprised that the Welsh Government were shocked.
So, why wasn’t this seen, to a degree, prior to setting the budget in March? Challenges facing the budget due to inflationary factors should have been pre-empted far earlier. It is crucial that forward planning and contingency thinking should have been at the forefront of Government’s mind far earlier. But it wasn’t, was it? Their eye has been off the ball for some time, while focusing on their suite of pet projects that have siphoned millions away from core services, increasing our vulnerability. I acknowledge that there were unknowns surrounding pay levels in service areas. However, that cannot be an excuse for the current state of play. We know that the Welsh Government’s total budget this year is the largest ever, at nearly £25.5 billion. Once again, I want to emphasise the fact that this has been the largest ever settlement given by Westminster, with next year’s projected at £26.5 billion—another thousand million.
However, Llywydd, it’s disappointing—I’m disappointed, but not surprised—that the Welsh Government is looking to blame again the UK Government for the Welsh Government’s political choices. The decision to implement the default 20 mph speed limit is a perfect example—a £33 million price tag with a cost of £4.5 million to the Welsh economy demonstrates well what I’m saying. And with the universal basic income, add another £20 million, together with a host of other pet projects, topped off with the plans for another 36 Senedd Members at £120 million over future years says it all. These were the Government’s priorities, decisions supported and encouraged by Plaid Cymru. So, it would be a bit rich if, on those benches, they start calling foul today.
And now we are where we are, with the First Minister asking his Labour Ministers to find cuts of up to £900 million, and I’m pleased to note in the Minister’s statement, though, that she is not going to level cuts at the NHS, as it’s already struggling. We understand a projected pressure of around £800 million is present, so £425 million will go some way to deal with the problems this year, but where will the funding come from for the future years? Our NHS here in Wales shouldn’t be at financial breaking point. The fiscal framework agreed by the Welsh Government and revised in 2016, signed by the Minister at that time, enables the Welsh Government to receive 20 per cent more to spend per person on health in Wales than spending per person on health in England. But we all know that that funding isn't being allocated to the health service here, is it? We know where it's been going—I mentioned it earlier. We know that if a few pence more for every pound had been directed where it should have been over the years the NHS in Wales would have been well placed to deal with inflation, elective care backlog, recruitment and retention and continuing healthcare. It would have had resilience and it would have been sustainable.
Llywydd, there is little detail in today's statement, and many people and projects will be anxious about where the cuts will fall. As always, the devil is in the detail. What is clear today, though, is that Welsh Labour have controlled things for too long, and, if this is a blueprint for running the UK, heaven help us if Labour get their way.

Rebecca Evans AC: Well, I'll begin, Llywydd, where I agree with the opposition spokesperson, and he did begin his contribution by recognising that Governments across the world are grappling with the impacts of inflation, and that is fair comment. Although in the UK we're actually grappling with it in a much more severe way than many other major economies, and I think that we are faring very poorly compared with other economies across the world that you would compare us with in normal circumstances.
But, that said, we've set out our budget; we're in the middle now of a three-year spending review. I set these spending plans in the winter of 2021. At that point we couldn't have imagined the impact of inflation, we couldn't have imagined the kind of—

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: I can understand when Labour Members try and talk through the Conservative spokesperson speaking, but I don't quite understand the logic of Labour Members talking through the Minister's response. I can't hear it myself. I need other Members to be able to hear it as well. The Minister, please.

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you, Llywydd. I was just reflecting on the fact that we set these spending plans back in late 2021 at the start of our three-year spending review and there was no way at that point we could have imagined the situation in Ukraine, for example, and the impact of inflation across the world, and then what it means for us in terms of the pay deals that we've settled with the NHS, for example. Absolutely the right thing to do—it's important to recognse the hard work of those staff—but ultimately now we have to find a way to accommodate that within our budget. So, there's no way we could have known back at that point.
I think it's helpful if I do set out for colleagues how we got to that £900 million point, because I think that there have been some questions as to how we worked that out. And the estimate was produced at the time of the spring budget to demonstrate the impact on the Welsh Government's spending power of the inflation shock since the spending review. And it does take account of increases to our settlement since the spending review. Those figures were based on the Office for Budget Responsibility's March forecast for consumer price index inflation combined with outturn CPI inflation since the spending review and compared to the CPI inflation forecasts at the time of the spending review. And those same figures were applied to both our revenue and our capital budgets to produce that overall estimate of £900 million. So, that figure really is a demonstration of the severity of the inflation shock since the spending review.
And the same calculation, actually, for 2024-25 produces a figure of around £700 million. That is a little lower than the 2023-24 figure, because the March OBR forecast for CPI inflation in 2024-25 was lower than for 2024-25 at the time of the spending review. So, you know, these are figures that have been worked out in great detail using the best available evidence to us, and we couldn't have envisaged that at the point of setting these spending plans in late 2021. But what we have done, actually, is acted very early in this financial year, so, even before we began this financial year—before we got to period zero—we were working across Government identifying pressures that would be manifesting in this financial year.
We have a very robust financial reporting mechanism, a system within the Welsh Government where departments across the Welsh Government report to me and my officials on a monthly basis, and it allows us to identify where the pressures are, where the potential underspends are and where the risks are. And then we use that information to guide us through the financial year. It became very obvious very early on that there were severe pressures and so we undertook to take action on that very early on in the financial year.
And then just to circle back, I suppose, to that first point about all Governments facing this. Well, all Governments in the UK are facing this as well. So, the UK Government is currently undertaking its productivity review, which is very similar in essence in many ways to the work that we're undertaking here, and I want and encourage the UK Government to be as transparent as we are in the work it's undertaking. We might hear more about it in their autumn statement on 22 November. I just hope it isn't something that is not as transparent as we're being here.
Then, of course, Scotland undertook an emergency budget last year, where you saw hundreds of millions of pounds reprioritised from budgets across Government, particularly within the health department, to support the NHS in Scotland. Again, we're seeing the pressures similarly here in the NHS in Wales. And, of course, Northern Ireland—obviously, they're in a different situation, but they did breach their departmental expenditure limits last year, so now they have to pay that back to the UK Government this year and next. So, this is a challenge facing all Governments, but I think it's important that we are open and transparent with the Senedd.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Diolch, Minister, for your statement. I welcome the Minister's update on the Welsh Government's financial position, and we're pleased that additional funds have been earmarked to support health services and public transport. But, given that the Welsh Government has been telling us since August that they've been working to address the £900 million hole in their budget, which, let's not forget, represents almost 5 per cent of the entire block grant for the current financial year, I'm sure many will be scratching their heads as to how they've been able to find an additional £550 million.
There is an issue of timing here as well. The first supplementary budget was announced in June and was based on, I quote,
'a number of allocations from the reserves and reflects changes to baselines including those announced by the UK government.'
But, a little more than two months later, the Welsh Government subsequently found itself having to find £900 million-worth of extra savings, and I thank the Minister for her explanation with regard to CPI and those elements just now. Since many of the savings that have been outlined here are coming from anticipated consequentials from NHS pay awards and draw-downs from the Wales reserve, both of which could have been known for some time, I'm not clear why it has taken over four months after the supplementary budget to provide this clarity. I'd therefore be very grateful, Minister, if you would commit to appearing before the Finance Committee as soon as possible to explain the relevant timescales, current developments and decisions taken by the Government that have led us to this point.
I'd also like to drill down on some specifics of this to fully understand how you were able to actually increase the £900 million gap through these further spending commitments, only to find yourself now in a position with a more manageable balance sheet. Firstly, you've made £425 million of additional funding available to the NHS, and you've said that they are also going to be making extremely difficult decisions in this financial year and the next. Can you confirm what the net position for the NHS will be at the end of the financial year? Is it right to say that the health boards will not balance their books?
As you're aware, the inability of six of the seven major health boards to break even during the last three years, in violation of their statutory duties, is a major reason why they are all in some form of targeted intervention. Can we, therefore, assume that, by adding to this shortfall, we shouldn't expect them to break even anytime soon, and that, as a consequence, targeted intervention across Wales's health boards is going to be a long-term feature of the Welsh Government's health agenda?
Secondly, you've also made a further £125 million available for Transport for Wales. Is this an admission that the service is not performing as it should be and becoming a bit of a money pit? You've also mentioned that substantial savings have been found through portfolio reprioritisation, of which a substantial portion is coming from underspends of demand-led programmes.
In terms of universal free school meals, I welcome the fact that over half of local authorities have completed the roll-out already and that delivery of the commitment in full by September 2024 is on track, as planned, and unaffected by the change in profile spending for the remainder of the year. As we've maintained since the summer, we would support ways to deliver the co-operation agreement commitments as effectively and efficiently as possible, whilst ensuring the outcomes are delivered in full according to the agreed timescales. I'm glad that my colleagues have been able to achieve this. However—. No, sorry.
Following on from the work carried out on the demand-led programmes, what insights can you share with this Chamber as a result of the exercise that you have taken? Will this be reflected in the models that you use in the future to ensure that the take-up of these programmes is maximised and that qualifying individuals receive the support they are entitled to? I notice that another portion of savings is based on assumptions that UK Treasury will consent to capital-to-revenue switches within the Welsh budget. Plaid Cymru have consistently advocated for the Senedd to be given greater flexibility to manage its in-year budget, as is standard practice for most national legislatures. I'm therefore pleased that the Minister is taking a bespoke arrangement with Westminster to enable this, but, given the particular antipathy of the UK Government towards devolution, how confident are you that these assumptions are credible? Presumably, if you're comfortable including them in your provisional calculations today, in spite of the hostility of the Tories, you have been in communications with UK officials for some time on this matter—is that correct?
Finally, in light of these changes to the Welsh Government's spending commitments, what level of assurance can you provide to the public that front-line services will be sufficiently supported, especially with the inevitable challenges that come through the winter months? We must protect our services, particularly for those vulnerable communities that rely upon them. Diolch yn fawr.

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you very much for those questions. I think perhaps it's helpful if I go through some of the parts of the package in order to try and respond to those questions. So, in essence, there are two parallel things going on here within the package. The first is the kind of normal financial in-year management that you see, the kinds of things that we would see in any supplementary budget when money is moved from one budget line to another or from one main expenditure group to another—relatively small, just in-year movements that would normally take place. So, we have some of that going on.
And then you've also got the normal in-year work that Ministers do to try and balance their budgets when pressures arise within year. So, for example, within health, the Minister has been working very hard within the MEG to try and repurpose money from within the MEG towards the NHS organisations, but then also challenging and being very firm with the NHS that it does need to manage down the deficit that it has in any case. You asked about how the Minister's working with the health boards. Well, she has instructed health boards to work within the budget and that does include, now, the additional £425 million, but also achieving savings that she's asked them to do as well. And they will remain in intervention until they do balance those budgets. So, the Minister has, I think, been very, very clear. So, it will be down to NHS organisations and heath boards now, in particular, to develop their plans as to how they will manage within budget and deliver the level of savings that the Minister is requiring of them. So, you've got that kind of normal, in-year side of things and then you've got the exceptional side of things, which is where we've worked across Government to identify funding that we can repurpose towards the NHS and towards rail as well.
In terms of Transport for Wales, and particularly rail, I know that there have been some real struggles because people just haven't been returning to rail in the numbers that we would have anticipated as we came out of the pandemic. I know that there's a programme of transformation going on within rail at the moment, so this will enable that piece of work to continue and to support those services as things move forward, at least through this financial year.
You asked specifically about free school meals and whether we are still on track. I'm very happy to confirm that we are still on track. The free school meals budget was one of those budgets that we were able to reprioritise funding away from because it's a demand-led budget. And I was very pleased to work closely with the designated Member Siân Gwenllian on this and we have provided assurances that—. We do have a good idea now, we've got the forecast at this point in the year, but, if the picture changes, then, absolutely, we'll find additional money to support the free school meals to deliver on our pledge to that. Those discussions have been really positive and pragmatic on the part of Plaid Cymru, so I do want to recognise that this afternoon.
And then you asked also about our assumptions and what we can learn from the fact that we are able, at this point in the financial year, to release money from some of those demand-led budgets. Well, one example, I suppose, would be funding that we've been able to release from the student support grant budget. So, that, again, is an anticipated underspend on a demand-led budget, due to a range of factors, one of which is lower enrolment—so, there simply aren't the students there to require that funding. That's an area where we've been able to release funding without having an impact on individuals, so I think that's another example. So, every year, we make the best assumptions we can on the available information when we are planning demand-led budgets, but by their very nature, we can't get it down to the exact pound, so there are always opportunities to release funding. But, equally, there might be other points in the year when those demand-led budgets will have more demand on them than we'd anticipated and we have to move to meet that additional demand.

Mike Hedges AC: Following austerity, brought in by the Conservatives, we've had the Conservatives, under Liz Truss, trashing the economy, and now, under a multimillionaire Prime Minister, we have returned to austerity. The Conservative legacy is low or zero growth, high tax and reduced expenditure on public services. The Welsh Government have a difficult task. I suggested Government cuts: take the Brexit dividend and cap farm payments, as called for by the Farmers Union of Wales. End Help to Buy, which inflates house prices, and use the transaction capital to help registered social landlords. Stop funding enterprise zones. End financial support for inward investment, which rarely provides what it promises, and often closes, and redirect that money to increasing skills and academic attainment. We have several commissioners created by the Welsh Government; I suggest undertaking a value-for-money exercise, and those that are not value for money are closed or reduced. Look at how the public sector can reduce energy costs using LED lighting and turning thermostats down. And I'm also aware that if the health boards overspend, the Welsh Government have got to cover that, because they are wholly owned subsidiaries of the Welsh Government.

Rebecca Evans AC: I'm very grateful to Mike Hedges for those comments and suggestions this afternoon. I know colleagues will be definitely considering those particular points, because actually, even though now, today, we're discussing where we are at this point within the financial year, we're already starting to set our plans looking ahead to the next financial year, and some of the decisions that we take at this interim point within this financial year might have impacts for next year. As I said, we've tried to minimise the impacts wherever possible, but it's not certain that this year's choices won't have an impact on next year, especially when, for example, there might have been hopes that we could stop doing something this year on the basis that we could push it into next year; so it just creates an additional pressure for next year. So, all of those ideas, I know, will have been really useful. The debate that we had before the summer recess has been very useful to colleagues as well, but I think that we'll know more, obviously, on 22 November when we have the autumn statement, and that will help us then set our plans to publish on 19 December for next year. But as I say, we have tried to grapple with this issue early on in the financial year; doing so did mean that there were more avenues open to us, but even that said, it is more difficult to make changes in-year, so we'll definitely take all of those points, Mike, on board for our thoughts for next year.

Gareth Davies AS: Thank you very much for your statement this afternoon, Minister. I fully endorse the remarks made by Peter Fox in response to your statement, in that a lot of Government expenditure is about priorities, and I personally believe that the Welsh Government have all—well, most of their priorities in the wrong place.
I would like to hone in on the remarks you made about the NHS, if I may. You announced the increase of £425 million to the NHS, but then, in another breath, you say that difficult decisions are still going to have to be made by health boards. So, what is that essentially saying? Is that saying that's a cut in real terms, or what sort of message is that giving out to health boards? And from a north Wales perspective, I'd like to ask—. Asking Betsi Cadwaladr to make difficult decisions while they're in special measures is quite a task, because obviously, the challenge of special measures is to eventually get the board out of special measures, and if they're suddenly embarking on making difficult decisions, then that's going to jeopardise the quality of the health board coming out of special measures in a specific time. So, can you comment on that matter and expand a bit more on your comments on the NHS and what that means for the people of north Wales from a Betsi Cadwaladr perspective? Thank you.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) took the Chair.

Rebecca Evans AC: So, I would disagree with the fundamental premise there that the Welsh Government has its priorities in the wrong place. This entire exercise was undertaken on the basis of a range of priorities and a range of principles that were about protecting public services and protecting those people who are most vulnerable, especially to the cost-of-living crisis, and also protecting jobs. Those, I think, are the priorities of the people of Wales, and I'm sorry that the Welsh Conservatives don't see those as the priorities and say that those priorities are in the wrong place.
In terms of the NHS, the NHS has been making difficult decisions for years now, and it's been doing that because of austerity and the constrained public spending that we've been able to provide to the NHS and all public services in the context of austerity. But, that said, the NHS will be receiving year-on-year now, this year, an increase of more than £800 million as compared with the last financial year. But, still, it's not enough, it's not enough to meet the pressures within health, it's not enough to provide the kind of service that we would want to provide to everybody. But that's where we are, so we are prioritising the NHS and we are asking colleagues to make difficult decisions across Government to meet that. This pressure is here because of inflation and because of years and years of underinvestment by the UK Government in public services.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: So, it's a £37.5 million cut to the rural affairs budget across revenue and capital funding, and I'm sure that will come as a punch in the stomach to the sector, because this is the biggest moment of vulnerability, uncertainty and insecurity for the sector as we transition from an established way of supporting the sector to something that is very, very new and very, very challenging. We haven't seen the detail yet. When we do, I wouldn't be surprised if maybe some of the cut is justified by a possible underspend because of a low take-up in the Habitat Wales scheme. Of course, if it is a low take-up, we know exactly why: because of the shambolic way that this Government has introduced that scheme, with unanswered questions, incorrect maps, ambiguity of funding levels undermining any confidence the sector would have in going into that scheme, and as a consequence, they're voting with their feet. So, it shouldn't come as any surprise, despite the Minister trying to interject.
You say in the document that's published with your statement that there will be
'minimal implications to the delivery of current established schemes with small impacts at an individual farm business level.'
I disagree. There's plenty that could have been done with this money. We're looking at things like the bovine viral diarrhoea scheme. Gwaredu BVD has been pleading for money. You could have utilised some of that. Likewise with sheep scab—

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Llyr, a question now, please.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: [Inaudible.] So, my question is this: you are putting the sector at the front line when it comes to delivering policies on climate change, on the nature emergency, whilst continuing to produce food for our tables, so can you give us an assurance—[Interruption.]

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I would like the Member to ask his question, because he's already well over, and his question needs to be asked.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Can you give us an assurance that the low take-up of the Habitat Wales scheme and any underspend as a consequence of that will not have any bearing on considerations for future funding going forward?

Rebecca Evans AC: As I understand it, that scheme is still open for applications, so, obviously, we would encourage people to put their applications in to that particular scheme. And as you'll see in the document that was published today and that was quoted from, these are underspends that have emerged from those particular budget lines.

Alun Davies AC: I'd like to thank the Minister for her statement this afternoon. I think it's the easiest thing in the world for Members on all sides of the Chamber to stand up and suggest alternative ways of meeting the demands of the budget, and I think Members should, in fact, actually congratulate the Minister on the work that she has done with her colleagues. This is the consequence of Tory economic mismanagement, and there's no point trying to make excuses for anything else. We saw the impact of Tory mismanagement a year ago, and every single one of us is seeing the impact of it every day today.
There's a serious question here that we need to address, though, because what we're dealing with here are the consequences of a broken financial system in the United Kingdom. We know that Brexit is going to deliver higher taxes for lower amounts of income. We know that; we've got a smaller economy as a consequence of Brexit. So, anybody who demands additional funding for any part of the public service sector needs to explain where that money is going to come from, and you can't fund the NHS on the basis of a couple of road signs, no matter what the Tories think. Let me say this—

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: No. A question, please, Alun. A question.

Alun Davies AC: We need to address the Barnett formula, which isn't delivering fair funding for Wales; we need to address the Treasury, which is a failing Government department under all administrations; and we need to have a fair distribution and redistribution of funding across the United Kingdom, as well as the freedom to enable the Welsh Government—

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Alun, you need to ask your question, please.

Alun Davies AC: [Inaudible.]—to borrow and deliver the financial management that is required to manage a £20 billion budget.

Member of the Senedd: Do you agree?

Alun Davies AC: Do you agree? [Laughter.]

Rebecca Evans AC: I’m very happy to agree with Alun Davies’s comments there, and particularly those around the system needing to be flexible enough to allow us to manage our budget in the best way possible. So, the fiscal framework as it stands gives us some borrowing powers and it gives us a Wales reserve, but the actual real value of those has decreased by 17 per cent since they were put in place, and every single year that goes by, it makes it more difficult to use those tools to best effect.
What I will say is: the Scottish Government has recently had a review of its fiscal framework through the mechanisms with the UK Government, and the UK Government has been pleased to provide the Scottish Government now with those uplifts in line with inflation, and I think that’s the bare minimum that we need the UK Government to provide to us. That’s not something that requires a wholesale opening of the agreement; it’s not something that should take 18 months; it’s something that a Chief Secretary to the Treasury, if they were being pragmatic, would just agree immediately for us, because that is just asking for the very bare minimum.
What we are asking for this year, which is something that we haven’t asked for before, is that capital-to-revenue switch. Now that’s something that the UK Government does for Whitehall departments every year; it does it almost routinely, but it’s something that we’ve never asked for. We do get capital-to-revenue switches, but it comes out of the Barnett sausage machine at supplementary estimates, and we basically get our share of whatever’s been agreed for UK Government departments. Now, that’s not a satisfactory way of dealing with a situation like this. So, in line with the consolidated budgeting guidance, I’ve spoken to and written to the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, asking for that capital-to-revenue switch to help us manage our budget within this financial year, and we would expect him to show some fairness to us and allow us to do what he allows other departments, as you would see them, to do.
What I will say is that from the Chief Secretary’s perspective, when there’s a capital-to-revenue request from Whitehall Ministers, he will sit down with them, he will go through their books, he will ask them about their spending plans, their choices, and so on, and scrutinise, but we can’t allow that to happen in our case, because of course it’s this Senedd’s role to scrutinise the Welsh Government and our spending choices, and it’s not the role of the UK Government to do that. So, we will continue to have these discussions with Treasury and any support we could have from colleagues of any political colour in relation to those discussions I think would be welcome.

Jane Dodds AS: Thank you for your statement and to you and your officials for meeting with me as well. I was pleased to see that the RSG was protected, particularly children’s services, which I know we’ve all been concerned about, and I’m grateful for the ongoing commitment to the universal basic income scheme for our care leavers, which we can already see has transformed the lives of some of the most vulnerable children here in Wales. So, I'm grateful to see that that ongoing scheme is going to be funded.
But I just wondered if you could comment on the financial resilience of the Welsh Government going forward. As you know, I’m not very good at maths and economics, but I do know that if you spend your reserves, you can only do that once, and I note in your statement that you are accessing £100 million plus from Welsh Government reserves. So, I just wondered if you’d just comment on the issues facing the Welsh Government budget going forward, if that continues to be a programme that you are accessing.

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you for recognising the importance of protecting the RSG, particularly insofar as it supports children and particularly throughschools, but also through children’s services and so on. I think that that was a really important sort of starting point for us when we started considering this exercise.
I think the points about resilience really go back to the point Alun Davies was making, about having a system that is robust and allows us to respond, and allows us to be flexible in the face of difficult challenges. So, the size of the Wales reserve at the moment isn’t appropriate for our needs; it's £350 million on a budget of over £20 billion, and it hasn’t increased since it was set. So, those simple things such as Treasury increasing an uplift to give it its real value today, and then increasing in line with inflation in future years, I think, would be a good, pragmatic starting point.

Samuel Kurtz AS: For clarity, on these benches we support the Welsh Government's ability to undertake capital-to-revenue switches. But, Minister, within my shadow portfolio, it will be no surprise that my eyes were drawn, in the 'Update on 2023-2024 financial position' document, and having listened to your statement, to the fact that the rural affairs capital budget will be slashed by 50 per cent—a £20.2 million cut—coupled with a cut of £17.3 million to revenue. That's a cut of £37.5 million to the total rural affairs budget, which totals roughly 10 per cent of the total budget, which is now lost because of the Welsh Government, because they didn't heed the advice or the warnings from the Wales Governance Centre, because, ultimately, the Welsh Government knows best.
Llyr asked the questions with regard to future funding of projects, but we're still yet to know what the budget total is for the Habitat Wales scheme. So, given that you've made this statement today, are you in a position to announce what the budget for the Habitat Wales scheme is? Are we in a position to hear from the Government today, or this week, what farmers will be pitching for in that total budget? Diolch.

Rebecca Evans AC: I'll begin by thanking the Member for the support that they've offered in terms of our request to the UK Government for the capital-to-revenue switch. That is warmly welcomed. I hope that you'll also support us—I'm certain that you will—in our request for the UK Government to maintain decent funding for farming in future budget rounds as well, because those are some of the discussions that we've been having, looking ahead to the next spending review period.
On the specific question, I'm afraid I'm not able to answer that today, but I will ask the Minister to consider your comments, and I'm sure that she'll make an announcement when she's able to.

Sioned Williams AS: Earlier, the First Minister, in response to a question from me on support for families and children in poverty, talked about the importance of offering childcare and free school meals to early years children through the agreement with Plaid Cymru. He spoke in strong terms about his disappointment and concern about the fact that there were families in poverty having such a difficult time here in Wales. You mentioned that supporting households that are hit hardest is one of the principles that you adopted in coming to your decisions—those are families with children.
So, I have to ask why the savings available in the budgets that can tackle child poverty, such as the early years and the childcare offer—over £16 million—and what is available from the free school meals budget—£11.5 million—are not being used to ensure the success of the Welsh Government's child poverty strategy. Minister, poverty creates inequality, and it locks children into that inequality for generations. So, in terms of the cut to the equalities, human rights and inclusion budget, what particular programmes will be postponed or downgraded? What's the Government's assessment of the impact of all of this on families living in poverty?

Rebecca Evans AC: I'm grateful for those comments. I would just refer you to the response I made in relation to free school meals and the fact that that is a demand-led budget. We expect to meet the demand, and if the demand grows, then we will have systems in place to be able to provide additional funding to meet that demand. So, I do want to provide that reassurance.
In relation to early years, we're releasing £16.131 million from the budgets supporting early years, childcare and play activities, but the majority of that funding has been released as a result of updated forecasts on the take-up of the childcare offer for Wales. That offer, which provides funded childcare for three and four-year-olds, is demand led, with annual variations in the number of eligible families, the number of families taking up their entitlement, and the number of hours of childcare used by those households. We do regularly monitor the demand to ensure that we are making the best use of that funding, and, on this occasion, we are in a position to release the emerging lower forecasted spending without impact on delivery or access to the provision.
We've also seen lower spending projections on the early years integration and transformation programme, and are reducing some of the planned support for training activities across the childcare and play workforce in-year as part of the wider training and support programme. We have maintained support for statutory activities and training required through the national minimum standards for regulated childcare, prioritising quality and safety of provision.
But the point made about understanding the impact on people with protected characteristics, on families and so on, is really important. That's why, alongside the supplementary budget, when lots of these moving parts will have firmed up, I'll be providing an addendum to the strategic integrated impact assessment, so that we're able to build on the document that I provided today, but provide more detail in terms of impact, and also those intersectional impacts on people who have more than one protected characteristic. So, I just want to reassure colleagues that that will be provided at the supplementary budget.

Jenny Rathbone AC: It's clear from your statement, finance Minister, that we face very challenging times, not least because of the mismanagement of the UK Government. But we absolutely have to ensure that we are using the resources that we do have at our disposal to the very best impact. We need to invest to save, and it's our job as Members who are not in the Government to scrutinise the way in which we're spending money, and come up with ways in which we can spend it better. So, it's clear to me that, if we want to do new or innovative things, we've got to stop doing other things. We heard from the First Minister just how much the tax take has increased and the debt has increased. Nothing's going to change in this department for several years, whoever takes on the Government after the next general election.
I took a trip down memory lane to the Public Accounts Committee I used to serve on in the fourth Senedd, ably chaired by Darren Millar. We did a look-in to the budgets of commissioners as well as the public services ombudsman. Back in 2015—

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Jenny, can you ask a question, please?

Jenny Rathbone AC: —we recommended efforts to achieve efficiencies and greater productivity through collaboration, including integration of back-office functions between the commissioner and the public services ombudsman. Yet the report by the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee in July this year came up with real baby steps to this end. I just wondered what conversations you're having with these arm's-length bodies to ensure that they are maximising the impact of their budgets, rather than repeating, having the same services in different locations. They could all be located in the same places, across Wales—

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Thank you, Jenny.

Jenny Rathbone AC: —but also have the back-office services all combined into one service.

Rebecca Evans AC: I know that the Minister for Social Justice has been very interested to hear your points; I know you've made them to her previously as well, in terms of the potential sharing of those back-office functions amongst the commissioners. Something that we are doing at the moment is looking across our Welsh Government estate, to see what we can release for other public sector partners to use. For example, we're seeing some of that happening now in Cathays Park, and I think there's definitely more that we can do in that space. Ystadau Cymru is a really important mechanism to help us do that. They promote excellence within the public service estate, and that's partly about ensuring that, for a whole host of reasons, organisations can co-locate. It ends up, actually, in many cases, giving better services to people as well, when people are able to have those face-to-face conversations and see each other on a more frequent basis. So, that kind of work is going on, certainly on an estate level, through Ystadau Cymru and through our own management of the Welsh Government estate. But your wider point about those back-office functions, I know, will have been well heard by the Minister.

Heledd Fychan AS: I wonder if you could please expand on some of the questions that my colleague Sioned Williams, and also Peredur, mentioned, just in terms of understanding the impact. We're pleased that you will be publishing further data, but can you share with us the equality impact assessment, especially in terms of the impact on gender budgeting? If you could, please, provide any assurances. Because for a number of these programmes, you've mentioned that they are demand-led services, but they're targeted interventions to address current problems regarding inequality and poverty. I'm hugely concerned to see those cuts, and if the take-up isn't there, which is the point made by Peredur Owen Griffiths, then surely we should be questioning why those interventions aren't successful.
Also, looking at education, we desperately need teachers, but the take-up isn't there, so money is able to be released. That's what's stated in the statement there. Can we please understand about apprenticeships and so on? You also mentioned that you aren't requesting additional funding, but we all agree here that Wales isn't receiving its fair share in terms of HS2, Crown Estate, water, Barnett formula, all of those. So, please, can you also explain how you're standing up for Wales to ensure that we do have the resources we deserve, so that we're not actually impacting and cutting situations that our communities desperately need? And the poverty point is the one that is crucial here. I do really worry that these interventions that are needed are going to be lost.

Rebecca Evans AC: I'm very grateful for those comments. As I mentioned, we will be publishing the addendum to the strategic integrated impact assessment. But our approach to the exercise has been about allocating funding and assessing the strategic and cumulative impacts of the choices that we make, to ensure that there is a proper understanding of the impacts and no disproportionate impact on any one specific group of people or any one particular characteristic. In undertaking the approach, we will be—and we have been—considering our statutory duties and, also, our non-statutory duties, in particular the Equality Act 2010, the public sector equality duty, the socioeconomic duty, the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, and then health, justice, environmental assessments, biodiversity, rural-proofing and the Welsh language. We seek, in understanding the impacts, to look through those lenses to get that kind of proper picture.
In terms of what we're doing, today's exercise isn't about asking for more money; it's about flexibility to use the money that we have. But that's not to say that we're not asking the UK Government for the money that we need. I've written to the Chancellor, ahead of the autumn statement, to outline the priorities for Wales, and said that has to be about investing in public services and addressing the impacts of inflation on our budget, including noting the pressures on local government, continuing to provide cost-of-living support, including implementing an essentials guarantee that would ensure that people are able to meet their essential costs, and also increasing the discretionary funding for housing payments and local housing allowance rates. Also, in that letter to the Chancellor, I talked about reclassification of HS2 as an England-only project, ensuring that Wales receives the consequential funding lost to date—that £270 million—and, also, then, conducting a wider review of rail comparability and committing to investing in a wider programme of investment in rail in Wales, providing the infrastructure that we need.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: And finally, Carolyn Thomas.

Carolyn Thomas AS: Diolch. This is a toxic combination of a decade of austerity, the Conservatives' mishandling of the economy, Brexit and inflationary pressures arising out of the disastrous Truss budget. I don't envy the decisions you're having to make, and I know the Welsh Government have already dug into reserves and are doing all they can to protect front-line services and the most vulnerable.
Public services are at the heart of our communities. They keep us safe and healthy. Yet they have been the first to be cut and impacted by the UK Government's decisions since 2010, when they introduced Brexit, and they are extremely fragile. As well as the Welsh Government facing £900 million of pressures, councils are having to find £600 million to £700 million in savings, because of Tory Government inflationary pressures, and are going through yet another tough decision-making process. I'm glad, Minister, that the RSG will be protected. Thank you for that.
We often hear of funding decisions by the UK Government for England where there are no consequentials for Wales, such as with HS2. We also hear about other pet projects, such as the £2 bus fare scheme, and I'm thinking, 'How can they afford that?' So, I'm saying, Minister, from your correspondence with your UK counterparts on these matters, please can you explain why this funding has not always been forthcoming? It seems to found down the back of sofas when it's most needed for Wales. And why don't they think about Wales too, as well as England, with this money? Thank you.

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you. I think that some of the problems relate to—we've seen it with HS2, haven't we—the comparability factors, and that's a particularly acute issue when it comes to rail. But another part is just the lack of transparency in year. We are taking really difficult decisions now, health boards will be taking really difficult decisions. Lots of our plans that we are counting on at the moment relate to some assumptions. We've made assumptions around a capital-to-revenue switch, we've made assumptions around additional funding in respect of NHS pay as consequentials and so on. We shouldn't have to wait until February of a financial year to understand what our actual budget for that year looks like, but that's the situation we find ourselves in. We've had previous years where our capital budget has been cut by £100 million right at the end of the financial year, so you have to accommodate that. It shouldn't be the case that it's February before we really understand what our budget is for that year, because you could miss out on opportunities to spend within the financial year. Equally, you could take these tough decisions and find out in February that, actually, you needn't have created that kind of pain in the first instance. So, more transparency I think is absolutely critical.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Thank you, Minister.

4. Statement by the Minister for Economy: Regional Economic Development

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Item 4 is a statement by the Minister for Economy on regional economic development. I call on the Minister for Economy, Vaughan Gething.

Vaughan Gething AC: I am pleased to have this opportunity to outline the progress that we are making to support stronger regional economic development across Wales. Members will have just heard the latest statement from the Minister for Finance and Local Government outlining the seriousness of the financial position that we currently face. Rising costs, more than a decade of austerity—these all affect businesses and communities right across Wales and threaten our ambitions for a stronger, fairer, greener economic future.
Dirprwy Lywydd, it is incredibly frustrating that incoherent, delayed and short-term post-EU funding streams decided at Whitehall hinder regional working and undermine the smooth join up that people, investors and communities need and expect. It is against this background that I am keen to restate our commitment to working in partnership with local authorities, businesses, trade unions and wider partners to provide as much certainty as possible in these challenging circumstances. I also reiterate today that the UK Government still could choose to return post-EU funds to Wales, to the Welsh Government, for scrutiny by this Senedd. That would complement, not contradict, the shared, long-term vision that we have developed at a regional level across Wales.
Our commitment to regional working exists to ensure that more decisions can be taken closer to communities, with a shared mission to help more people to plan an ambitious future in a stronger, fairer and greener Wales.Our regional economic frameworks were published in December 2021. They were co-produced with partners and are based on evidence and agreement. They set out a shared vision around a common set of economic priorities and a commitment to work together to boost existing strengths and to unlock new potential.
Dirprwy Lywydd, our work on the four Welsh city and growth deals is focused on close working that maximises our strengths, including the everyday economy, with projects and programmes that are fit for the future. In south-east Wales, we are working with trusted partners to develop key growth areas, including cyber, creative industries and fintech to build on current success to support growth and new, quality jobs. It’s worth reflecting that today there has been a further announcement that PwC are investing in the Cardiff capital region, with at least a further 1,000 jobs, again coming from the partnership between the Welsh Government and local authorities in that capital region. I am pleased that joint working between Cardiff capital region and Creative Wales recently led to new investment at Seren Stiwdios, unlocking hundreds of new jobs in an important growth sector.
Newport’s compound semiconductor cluster represents a regional strength with global impact in a sector that is at a turning point. The world is paying attention to the role that this region, and the skilled workforce that it boasts, will play in boosting the supply of the products that all of us rely on in our daily lives. A net-zero economy will rely increasingly on this technology. We are ambitious about the potential it offers for people to build excellent careers, closer to home. I was delighted to work both with the local authority and KLA to help secure their investment plans that will see hundreds of new jobs in this sector created at KLA’s expanded site. More recently, I have made it clear to UK Ministers that we are anxious to see a meaningful level of financial commitment to this area—not just the sector, but to this area and to this cluster outside Newport—from the new UK semiconductor strategy. I look forward with interest to seeing whether that will happen.
Dirprwy Lywydd, I continue to meet regularly with leaders across the capital region. I look forward to updating Members further on ongoing discussions to enhance joint working on areas of shared priority, including economic development in Valleys communities.

Vaughan Gething AC: Looking to north Wales, I am pleased that Holyhead hydrogen hub has become part of the north Wales growth deal. It represents a catalyst for kick starting the region's hydrogen economy, acting as a strategic anchor site inside the proposed Anglesey free port. It will support a regional transition to green hydrogen and help ensure regional demand is met from regional supply.
The Development Bank of Wales, headquartered in Wrexham, is offering strong support to the region, with Wrexham ranked as the No. 1 area in Wales in terms of the total amount invested locally in 2022-23. I was particular pleased to see how the technology seed fund has supported the Anglesey tech start-up, Explorage.com, alongside M-SParc. This is a great example of investment that pulls in the same direction to help scale up a new business in a rapidly growing market.
Dirprwy Lywydd, I updated Members recently on economic development activity in mid Wales, with examples of investment in Aberystwyth, Machynlleth, Llanfyllin, Welshpool and Knighton, among others. We have recently released the first tranche of funding for the mid Wales growth deal—a crucial milestone and an important step forward. This provides a signal to investors that the deal is entering its delivery phase, which is crucial to the task of securing further private sector investment.
In south-west Wales, we've been working with partners to provide a multiport approach to the enormous opportunities presented by floating offshore wind in the Celtic sea. It has been encouraging to see the collaboration that led to the Celtic free port bid, based largely on the opportunities around floating offshore wind, manufacturing, and wider innovations that are important too for the future of our steel sector in Wales.
We continue to work with regional skills partnerships to identify regional and local skills priorities. These skills partnerships are pivotal, providing labour market intelligence to the Welsh Government, based on economic need and potential. They work closely with employers to identify the skills required in the regional workforce to support growth and key infrastructure projects. They are helping to provide an additional focus on areas such like digital skills, Net Zero Wales, and the Welsh language, as well as strategic priorities for the further education sector and apprenticeship delivery. I am particularly interested in the potential to turn these opportunities into fairer employment outcomes, given the business need to think long term as we all plan for a net-zero future.
Dirprwy Lywydd, in February we published a new innovation strategy, 'Wales innovates', as part of the co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru. The strategy points the way to a different approach to innovation in Wales at a time of enormous transition. It adopts a mission-based approach, promoting collaboration and best practices that work for all regions. At that time, we committed to publish an innovation delivery plan, which I am pleased to say we've published today.
The Business Wales service plays a key role in getting bespoke help to entrepreneurs and businesses, enabling them to start up and grow in all of our regions. It is a fully bilingual, flexible service that is adjusted to accommodate regional considerations. Like the Development Bank of Wales, it is close enough to understand the economic need in communities and big enough to act at scale, proving the strength of devolution in Wales.
As we continue to support new corporate joint committees and encourage regional working more broadly, we are working with the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development as part of a long-term partnership to help bring quality, external advice and thinking to regional policy. We are also taking forward, with local authority partners in Ynys Môn, Gwynedd, Carmarthenshire and Ceredigion, our co-operation agreement commitment to Arfor 2, which builds on the experience of the earlier programme. I was pleased to discuss the programme at this year's Eisteddfod, as we discussed our ambition to support thriving local businesses.
As part of our plan for economic growth, I want to strengthen the unique partnerships that bring together businesses, local authorities, trades unions, academia, the third sector, and all those motivated to create a fairer, greener Welsh economy that should be built by all of us. We share the analysis of many people across the UK that economic centralism is corrosive to public trust, bad for growth and bad for investment in a rapidly changing world. With a clear, long-term industrial policy at a UK level, Wales will be uniquely placed to grow our economy with quality, fulfilling jobs in communities that are more secure and firmly part of our shared economic future. I'll be happy to take questions and comments from Members.

Paul Davies AC: Can I thank the Minister for his statement this afternoon? I very much welcome the opportunity to scrutinise the Minister on the Welsh Government's progress in strengthening regional economies. As I've said before, I very much welcome moving to a place-based approach to economic development, and today's statement gives us some detail on the work the Welsh Government has done in this area.
Now, today's statement refers to the regional economic frameworks that were established in order to drive collaboration at a more local level. Those frameworks were developed almost two years ago, and so it's important to understand exactly what they have achieved and where there needs to be more work. Therefore, perhaps the Minister can tell us how the Welsh Government is assessing their effectiveness and whatcriteria is being used to test whether those frameworks are delivering real outcomes. Indeed, perhaps the Minister will commit to providing information on the number of jobs created, the amount of inward investment generated, as well as what new partnerships are being created as a result of these frameworks.
Now, today's statement also refers to the city regions and growth deals and as the Minister has made clear, they continue to identify and develop opportunities for growth. For example, in north Wales I'm also pleased that Holyhead Hydrogen Hub has become part of the north Wales growth deal. I also agree with the Minister that Newport’s compound semiconductor cluster has a real opportunity to become a global leader, and there's been some good progress in south-east Wales to develop key growth areas in cyber creative industries. And of course, in south-west Wales I know there are enormous opportunities presented by floating offshore wind in the Celtic sea, and it's good to see the Welsh Government working with stakeholders on this agenda. There has been some good progress, but it's crucial that investment is not too concentrated to specific areas. So, I'd be grateful if the Minister could tell us how the Welsh Government is ensuring all parts of each region are feeling the benefits associated with the growth deals and city regions.
The Minister knows that I believe that skills provision should be a priority for each region, and I'm grateful for the update on the work of regional skills partnerships across Wales. I still believe that each area should provide an annual skills update along with an action plan on how best to address any skills shortages. It's crucial that each region understand the skills picture in their own areas, and there needs to be a commitment to ensure that the provision of skills meets the needs of the business community in each region. Therefore, I hope the Minister will consider this and, in the meantime, tell us more about how each region is prioritising skills development, and how the Welsh Government is supporting the regions to ensure that skills provision meets the needs of local industries in each region.
Now, today's statement also refers to post-EU funding and the levelling-up agenda, and it's still my view that, when the UK Government and Welsh Government work together, Wales benefits. I'm sure the Minister has already read the excellent report by the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee on this particular subject, which has made some serious recommendations to both Governments on how the current system and structure can be strengthened. I appreciate that the report has not long been published, and I know the Minister will respond officially in due course, but perhaps he could give us an early indication of the Welsh Government's view on that report and the recommendations made in it.
The Minister is right to say developing stronger regional economies relies on the building of strong partnerships, where all stakeholders play a full role, and so I'd be grateful if the Minister could confirm whether he believes that private and third sector partners, for example, are being fully engaged in regional economic policy. The development of regional economic frameworks in particular is intended to facilitate collaborative regional economic development, and it's vital that we see some evidence that these frameworks are actually delivering. There is a fear of duplication between the work of the growth deals and city regions, the corporate joint committees and the regional economic frameworks, and so we must have some clarity over how these work together.
Today's statement refers to the innovation strategy and its delivery plan, which was published today. That delivery plan has some interesting targets, such as obtaining a 3 per cent share of Innovate UK’s competitive budget by 2026, and 5 per cent by 2030. As the plan's goal is to increase the amount of investment in research, development and innovation activity across all sectors, and ensure a fair regional share, perhaps the Minister can tell us how the delivery plan will filter into the Welsh Government's regional economic policy.
Finally, Dirprwy Lywydd, I just want to touch on some of the Welsh Government's broader priorities, and how these priorities are being filtered into regional economic policy. For example, how is the Welsh Government driving its decarbonisation agenda in regional economic development policy, and how is it encouraging its principles of fair work and equality, for instance? Diolch.

Vaughan Gething AC: [Inaudible.]—for the long series of questions. I'll try and deal with them, and try and deal with them as promptly as possible. Since 2021, of course, the Member will be aware, we've had significant churn at UK level, which has directly impacted on the work of all of us—businesses, Government here, in the Welsh Government, local authorities and further afield. That's both churn in terms of policy direction, also churn in terms of policy and ministerial seats as well. We've also had a period of significant economic difficulty, with real challenges around inflation that have changed the environment. We've also had a lot of policy intervention deliberately cutting across devolved areas. We've discussed this many, many times in this Chamber and outside. That has been unhelpful for businesses and for all of our economic regions. The Welsh Government is working with regions to reflect on what has happened and to want to understand how we can continue to maintain purpose and direction from the shared priorities that we have gathered together.
Perhaps here I can deal with one of the points the Member mentioned later on. I don't think there is a contradiction between growth deals, CJCs and economic frameworks. The growth deal partnerships produced the economic frameworks for their regions; they've been co-designed and agreed, as I said. It's a matter of agreements and evidence, which does not always characterise our interventions from the UK Government. A number of those growth deals are migrating their governance as part of CJCs to make sure there's a consistent way of dealing with the way that partners have those discussions within each CJC area, and indeed with wider partners, including the Welsh Government.
Now, when it comes to growth deals and the spread and the success of those within each of the areas, it's one of the conversations we do have. I meet with a Wales Office Minister and the growth deal partnerships through the year. We've obviously got a greater interest in the sense that we've got a range of economic development levers and partnerships with local authorities that go well beyond simply the growth deal. The point of having different local authorities as partners is that they're all interested in the region as a whole, but also their area within it. As a good example, whilst the leader of Swansea is the chair of the Swansea bay growth deal area, it's the leader of Torfaen, not the leader of Cardiff, who chairs the south-east Wales growth deal. And, of course, Dyfrig Siencyn, the leader of Gwynedd, chairs the growth deal in north Wales. And, in mid Wales, the two local authorities, I think, work very well together, and I've recently met them and I'm pleased to see them moving into delivery phase.
On skills development, I did mention this in the statement about the role of regional skills partnerships, and, again, we've had unhelpful contradictions from the UK Government in the area of skills. It has both confused the landscape in a way that is not helpful for learners, for providers or businesses, and, of course, the loss of more than £1 billion in post-EU funds has a real impact in the area of skills. Our previous apprenticeship programme, about 30 per cent of that was funded by former EU funds. So, actually, the funding choices imposed upon us, including the cuts made to our budgets by the UK Government, have a real impact in this area, and it would be nice if every now and again Conservative Members could honestly reflect upon that. It's certainly something that businesses and providers understand very well.
I look forward, though, to responding to the committee's report. I know we have a date coming up for me to respond formally in the Chamber. I'm interested in seeing what we can do to meet and to address a range of those recommendations. It will, however, require a different approach from the UK Government to take a more pragmatic approach to the future. I do hope that we will have a future UK Government that does not see us as rivals to be avoided or to be managed around, but actually to recognise that, if you are going to decentralise power across the UK, the return of responsibility over post-EU funds should come back to the Welsh Government for scrutiny in the Senedd.
Now, on business engagement and growth deals, I'm actually quite positive about how businesses do engage. If you look at a number of the projects that are being run, the ability to lever in private sector investment as well, that can only happen with good engagement with the private sector, and I think that is one of the strengths of the approaches being taken and led by local authorities.
On the innovation delivery plan, I think it is consistent with the way that our economic regions and growth deals are going about their business. It was deliberately written in that way, to think about how we work with areas of strength in Wales. And we'll look to then test what we're doing against that delivery plan, and you will be able to see, transparently, the sort of progress we're making in each of the regions of Wales.
And then, on your final and broader questions, we're looking at fair work in a number of the areas we're going to look at. So, it's one of the considerations for free ports, for example. They'll need to demonstrate that they are meeting the fair work agenda here Wales. It's part of the conversation we've had with the retail sector today on taking forward the retail delivery plan. And the same for net zero as well. Whilst the UK Government may have rowed back from net-zero commitments, we're still encouraging people to invest in that future, to think about energy efficiency not just as a challenge but as an opportunity, how we decarbonise our broader economy, and that's why we'll continue to support Net Zero Industry Wales and a range of other interventions. This isn't just one area of the Welsh Government; it's a consistent approach we want to take, to make sure that a net-zero economy and our path to decarbonisation delivers the good jobs we think it could and should do in what is a genuinely just transition.

Luke Fletcher AS: Thank you for the update today, Minister.

Luke Fletcher AS: Since the start of devolution, the local economies of Wales have consistently lagged behind the rest of the UK. Cardiff and Flintshire are the only two of the 22 Welsh authorities to have recorded higher levels of GDP per head compared to the UK average in 25 years. And in areas such as Newport and Bridgend, the gap has actually widened in that time.
As I mentioned last week, during Plaid Cymru's debate on HS2, our rural areas, which have some of the worst transport links in the UK, also rank amongst the least productive in the UK. For example, the most recent Office for National Statistics statistics show that Powys's price output per hour worked is 63 per cent of the UK average. Now, of course, the four regional growth deals in Wales are meant to be the main drivers of economic development at a regional level, and all four have ambitions of boosting the GVA performance of their respective regions over the next decade. However, the latest progress update report for the north Wales growth deal notes that the risk profile for the deal remains high, particularly in relation to capacity and investment from both the public and private sectors. Understandably, the affordability of projects covered by the deal has also been cited as a major concern, due to the impact of inflation, supply chain issues and construction costs increasing.
Now, given the difficulties that we encountered, and were encountered by the Swansea bay growth deal, prior to the pandemic, which of course prompted a comprehensive independent review into its governance structures, I am wary about the ability of these deals to deliver meaningful improvements, especially in the current economic climate. Part of the issue has been the historic weakness and incoherence of governance structures for fostering growth at regional level, even within the context of growth deals, and it was noted in a recent article in the journal of Regional Studies, which assesses the performance of the Cardiff capital region city deal, that this is epitomised by the reliance of the growth deals on overly centralised and top-down grant models, which do not sufficiently cater for the particularities of local economies. There is also the related problem of growth deals being inherently aligned towards larger corporations, at the expense of domestic SMEs. So, in this respect, the propensity of the UK Government for centralisation, for stripping away the decision-making powers of local authorities over investments and resourcing, is diametrically incompatible within an apparent agenda for addressing regional inequalities. Perhaps they should heed the words of their former director general for public spending at the Treasury, Sharon White, who said there's pretty good cross-country data that shows that decentralisation tends, on average, to be more closely associated with both stronger growth and better public services. That's why it's so important that we restore to local authorities their decision-making powers that have been eroded so dramatically in the aftermath of Brexit.
I appreciate the fact that Keir Starmer, in a rare acknowledgement of the existence of Wales, has previously committed to providing the Senedd and, by extension, our local authorities, full control over any future post-EU funding programmes, but, as Labour Members have come to realise in recent years, most of Keir's pledges haven't been worth the paper they've been written on. So, I would therefore urge the Minister to press his UK leader to stick to his word and to keep banging the drum for powers over regional economic development to be expanded at a local level here in Wales, rather than outsourced to London.

Vaughan Gething AC: I'm not sure I could detect many questions within the contribution, but, to be fair, Luke Fletcher has a consistent narrative where he, broadly, does not believe that we will be able to deliver significant economic development in the way we are seeking to do with our partners, and it's fine for him to be sceptical about that. I actually think Swansea bay growth deal is a good case in point. He mentioned the previous governance review that took place. Actually, the Swansea bay growth deal has all of its projects in delivery, and I think they've set themselves a level of ambition and delivery that will make a material difference. I think the difficulty is if you say the growth deal is what is going to transform the economic prospects of each of those regions on their own. That is not a test that we have ever set them, and I think that would not be a fair way to look at it. But you do see a number of projects that are going into delivery in the growth deal and outside it, and I think Swansea bay city deal is a good example of three different local authorities, now with three different forms of political leadership, who are still managing to find a way to agree on bigger priorities across the region.
When it comes to your point around affordability, this is a concern that we've discussed with each of the growth deal areas. The reality of inflation, the fact that the budget hasn't increased, and some of the challenges and expectations in delivery, are points that we have raised with them in our conversations with them, and, from my point of view, I think there is a reasonable level of understanding if they need to either reshape some of the projects they have, but to try to keep on track for the long-term impact of what they can do by working together across the region. I think, actually, it's been helpful in getting people to recognise they can do more by working together on a range of areas.
As I said in my opening, the news about PwC is goodnews, not just for Cardiff but, actually, across the region. Local authorities leaders came together from across the region to support the case for PwC investment, and we've been able to secure agreement with PwC for them to help deliver a range of benefits in those areas where economic growth and development is needed the most, both within the poorer southern arc of the city of Cardiff but also outside of the city of Cardiff as well. 
On your broader point around decentralisation, again, it's in the statement that I've made, and we've been consistent about this. We think that the UK is an overly centralised state, and, actually, as well as former EU powers coming back to us, there's a further conversation about the sort of share of powers that should exist. And it's implicit, actually—not implicit—it's explicit in the draft industrial strategy that UK Labour colleagues have already produced. They reference states like Germany, where the Länder have a different and a clear mission from the central Government, the federal Government. We think that the UK should change the way that it works permanently, and that will only happen with a future UK Labour Government. I'm optimistic about our ability to punch well above our weight when that Government is formed, and I look forward to the voters having the opportunity to drive out the current bankrupt Government, and to have a new start with a Labour Prime Minister in Downing Street.

Mike Hedges AC: I welcome the statement by the Minister. One of the best developments in the last Senedd was the creation of the four economic regions in Wales. I welcome the commitment to regional working to ensure that more decisions can be taken closer to communities within a shared mission that allows more people to plan an ambitious future and a stronger, fairer and greener Wales. Whilst I'm always pleased to see economic development in Flintshire, it doesn't benefit any of my constituents. I welcome the support for floating offshore wind turbines built in Port Talbot, which will allow a new industry to develop. For the successful economic future of the Swansea bay city region, we need high paid and stable employment, which is why I've been an enthusiastic supporter of the Swansea bay city deal from the very beginning. Can the Minister provide an update on how the Swansea bay city deal is progressing, and can the Minister also tell us what is being done to increase the number of jobs in life sciences, professional services and ICT, where it is shown that we are weak in Wales, and even weaker in south-west Wales?

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the questions, but I should point out that whilst, from a constituency point of view, Mike Hedges is less interested in Flintshire, constituency Members in Flintshire are very interested and the Welsh Government is very interested in the future economic success of Flintshire overall, and not just a significant anchor of a business like Airbus that provides a huge amount of employment on both sides of the England-and-Wales border. It's a genuine international-class manufacturing hub with a significant supply chain, lots and lots of jobs, and what I'm looking for is more magnet projects like that across Wales.
I wouldn't be quite so downhearted as Mike is about life sciences in Wales, including south-west Wales as well. So, we have a hub of professional services. Our challenge is seeing more of those professional services moving outside Cardiff as well. That’s part of the offer and part of the skills offer we look to develop. If you look at what is unique—and you mentioned this, Mike—if we’re going to develop and build floating offshore wind turbines in Port Talbot, as I want us to, then we’ll need to have investment in ports, investment in Neath Port Talbot and investment in Milford Haven as well. Those manufacturing opportunities and the opportunity to add a long-term future for steel production should provide really good jobs for people in Mike’s constituency and well beyond, and I’m optimistic we’ll be able to do that. There’s more development taking place in the path to net zero and a greener economy as well, which I think would also benefit people in the Swansea bay city deal area beyond the opportunity to manufacture those wind turbines.
As I was saying to Luke Fletcher, I think that the Swansea bay city deal is in a good place. All of its projects are in delivery. They’ve managed to get through the governance review that took place a few years ago into a much better place. There’s a shared understanding from all three local authorities about what they’re trying to do, and it’s part of achieving an ambitious future for the Swansea bay city deal area that doesn’t focus on what other parts of Wales do, but focuses on what you can do and what you can only do, in some respects, in that part of Wales, to understand what is unique and positive about doing so. And I think, Mike, that we can all take some pride in the delivery of the Swansea bay city deal. What I will do, though, is I’ll send him a more detailed briefing on delivery in that area to make sure that he is fully armed with what we’re doing in that respect, as well as our ambitions to address some of the high-priority areas that he’s mentioned.

Gareth Davies AS: Thank you very much for your statement this afternoon, Minister. I’m pleased that you’ve raised the north Wales growth deal today, and of course the Anglesey free port delivered by the UK Conservative Government and local MP Virginia Crosbie. Focusing on the Anglesey free port, could the Minister give his assessment of the employment opportunities the free port will give to local people in Anglesey, and indeed across north Wales, as I think there’s a real opportunity to maximise employment prospects across the region, and make north Wales an economic hub going into the future?

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the question. I won’t be able to fully answer all of that, because as the Member will know, I am a decision-taking Minister in the future of the free-ports programme. We’re expecting the outline business case for each of the free ports towards the end of November, and maybe into early December. It’s great that he wants to give credit for the free port to the UK Government and the current Member of Parliament for Ynys Môn. It is of course the case that there were a range of other partners involved in advocating for that, and what actually made it possible was when we moved away from a previous Conservative Secretary of State for Wales demanding that the Welsh Government agree to whatever was available, including a less than fair share of investment from the UK Government, and we actually got away from the megaphone insults that were taking place and got into a direct conversation with the Secretary of State for the Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities. That then produced a much more grown-up way that we could behave together. It’s a mark of what we could and should do on a regular basis. However, it is not the mark of every single intervention from the UK Government.
I look forward to the free port in Ynys Môn being a success. I hope that the outline business case will allow me and the decision-taking Minister in the levelling-up department to be able to signal movement onto the next phase, so we have a clearer idea of the types of jobs that will go there and the benefit that it will produce, and the long-term impact, I think, will be not just in the Anglesey free-port area, but also further afield as well. We’re interested in growth in the economy and not simply displacing activity with the incentives that should be available with the free-port offer.

Alun Davies AC: I'm grateful to the Minister for his statement this afternoon. The biggest investment that the Welsh Government has made in the economy of the northern Valleys of Blaenau Gwent is that in the A465 dualling project, and the local authority are very clear that the fact that the Welsh Government has invested in dualling the A465 has meant there’s been a considerable uptake in the number of business enquiries that they are receiving, and looking at the growth of businesses within the borough. I’m anxious that the Minister’s able to come to Blaenau Gwent, to come to the northern Valleys, and discuss with us how the Welsh Government can continue to invest in economic development in this part of the world. The investment made by Tech Valleys has already borne fruit, but, Minister, there is a requirement for further business units, starter units, investment in expansion units. We need to see investment in the energy networks serving the Heads of the Valleys region and we also need to continue investment in skills and apprenticeships and training, as well as investment in an infrastructure that can sustain further business investment, such as the local industrial estates, but also things like mobile phone signals that are still, after 20 years of Ofcom, not where they need to be. So, there needs to be a whole round, holistic investment in the business environment in the Heads of the Valleys to maximise the value of the investment that the Welsh Government has already made in the A465 dualling.

Vaughan Gething AC: I thank the Member for the points he's made and I agree, it's been a significant investment, and it was all about opening up economic development opportunities. We do need more development land and—the Member's right—a range from larger premises to smaller ones as well. It's already opened up a significant amount of development that has taken place in a way that it should be sustainable as well. I think the Member's also right to point to the Tech Valleys programme. We've committed about £40 million already, including, of course, the biggest investment in Ebbw Vale is the £16 million Thales technology campus as well.
I would like to see our investments made real and to see the significance of what can take place there as well. And I recognise it's more than one thing. It's the transport links, it's the development land, it's the investment in skills, it's investment in infrastructure, including broadband connectivity as well. I know that the Member has been seeking to get me to Blaenau Gwent to visit a number of businesses, and I'm sure that we'll find an opportunity to do so, to see what we are already doing with the investments that have already been made, but more importantly than that, to be really clear about the opportunities for the future. Because the future won't all be about transporting people into our three cities in the south for work, it will actually be about how work goes into different parts of the capital region, as well as the significant opportunities we have in north-east and north-west Wales too.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: And finally, Jack Sargeant.

Jack Sargeant AC: Diolch yn fawr, Deputy Presiding Officer. It's always good to hear the Minister talk about the importance of Flintshire's success to the Welsh economy. And he will know in the visits I've had with the Minister that we have a proud history of advanced manufacturing in Deeside. He will also know that I've worked alongside people with those skill sets every single day before entering this Senedd, and given the right support, those people with that skill set can secure the new investment that we seek in Deeside. Employers like Airbus and the Advanced Manufacturing Research Centre have a vision to boost the skilled workforce and talent pipeline within the region of north-east Wales.
This is what the future looks like, Minister: delivering the next generation of skills to manufacture the next generation of carbon neutral products we need. I heard the Minister's commitment to collaboration with the UK Government. I wonder if he will commit further in working with UK counterparts to deliver an investment zone in the region of north-east Wales to make this vision a reality.

Vaughan Gething AC: I thank the Member for the comments and the questions. On the investment zone proposals, it would have been better if we'd been able to work those through before they were announced, but I have approached this in a pragmatic and constructive way with both the levelling-up department and, when we've been able to, with Ministers in the Department for Business and Trade, to want to understand how we can have a proposal that works with devolution. Because for it to work properly it must take account of some of the levers we have, as well as some of the offer from the UK Government. We've not yet concluded that discussion, although as well as in north-east Wales I know that other people are interested too. I'm hopeful that in the coming months, without too much of a further delay, I am keen that we're able to resolve this matter, and to be clear about what could happen with an investment zone, including the potential in the discussions for there to be more than one, but no definitive decision has been made yet. As soon as that has happened, I'll make sure that not just the Members who asked the questions, but other Members with an interest are made aware in a public decision.
I'm pleased we've also talked about the AMRC, and of course the advanced technology centre I think we want to see happening in north Wales. Your point around skills, the people that you work with on a daily basis in your previous career before coming to the Senedd, it's really important that we have people who are able to do those jobs. One of the key challenges investors are always looking for, for businesses of every size and every sector, is, 'Have you got the people? Have you got the skills? Are you investing in the skills of people in the future?' Some of that will come through higher education; much of it will come through further education and opportunities to reskill and upskill during working life. One of the things I do think we can be proud of and I want to be clear about, despite all of the challenges we face, is that in advanced manufacturing and a range of other areas we have good prospects for a really good future. It's all about the talent, the achievement already to date and the ambition for the future to make that actually happen to make it a reality. Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I thank the Minister.

5. Statement by the Deputy Minister for Social Partnership: National Hate Crime Awareness Week

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Item 5 this afternoon is a statement by the Deputy Minister for Social Partnership: National Hate Crime Awareness Week, and I call on the Deputy Minister, Hannah Blythyn.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. National Hate Crime Awareness Week encourages people from all walks of life and communities to work together to tackle hate crime. It's an opportunity to highlight the help that is available and to show how important it is to report crimes like this. It is also an opportunity to educate and to support those who have been affected.

Hannah Blythyn AC: The theme of this year’s Hate Crime Awareness Week is faith hate crime and antisemitism. With the most horrific events unfolding in the middle east, it is more important than ever that we remain committed to tackling all forms of religious-based hate crime. Ministers are in contact with representatives of Jewish communities and Muslim communities here in Wales to ensure we can support those communities at this incredibly distressing time. We are clear that the Welsh Government stands firmly against any form of antisemitism, Islamaphobiaand all faith-based hate crime.
The Welsh Government-funded Wales hate support centre continues to provide support and advocacy to victims of hate crime across Wales, and I would like to thank them for co-ordinating activities and working with a range of partners to mark this week. Yesterday, I spoke at a national event organised by the centre, which highlighted the importance of allyship and bystanders in tackling hate crime. We can only truly tackle hate crime if each and every one of us is aware of what a hate crime is and the harm it can cause, and are prepared to challenge, change and call it out. Yesterday's event was one of the many events arranged to mark the week, which includes awareness-raising sessions with children and young people, a panel discussion with the Police and Crime Commissioner for North Wales and a hate crime roadshow led by Gwent Police.
The Wales hate support centre is now in its second year of providing a national hate crime service for children and young people. It has further developed its lived experience advocacy forum to continually seek improvement of the service. The forum is made up of past service users and provides the centre with valuable insight, which helps with work such as reviewing the centre’s complaints procedures and identifying barriers to reporting hate crime. The forum members also helped to inform the development of our anti-hate-crime campaign, Hate Hurts Wales.
In February, we relaunched Hate Hurts Wales to coincide with LGBTQ+ History Month and the publication of the 'LGBTQ+ Action Plan for Wales'. The refreshed version of the campaign not only aims to empower victims to report hate crime, but also calls for witnesses and bystanders to step forward. Our new campaign resources show people from different backgrounds coming together to stand up to hate crime, and this show of unity is a powerful symbol and a message that hate and prejudice are not welcome in Wales.
In addition, we have increased media activity for National Hate Crime Awareness Week, with the addition of television, radio and out-of-home advertising. This includes targeted media activity around public transport and sports stadiums. We have also been working with former international rugby referee Nigel Owens to raise awareness of Hate Hurts Wales, with him sharing his own experiences of prejudice and discrimination.
Tackling online hate remains a priority whilst, sadly, social media often facilities a toxic environment that can serve to amplify hate. We are strengthening links with the Office of Communications in readiness for its new role as regulator of online safety in the UK. We welcome the expansion of Ofcom'sremit, and we intend to work closely with them, going forward, as they use their new powers to hold companies accountable.
Our community cohesion teams also continue to be instrumental to our work to support communities and to mitigate tensions.

Hannah Blythyn AC: We have been working with the criminal justice board in Wales to investigate people who commit hate crimes. This research builds on other schemes that have successfully changed the attitudes of people doing these crimes and restorative justice practices. Now, we're looking at next steps for this work. We will be in discussion with criminal justice partners during the hate and community tension Wales board meeting later this month.

Hannah Blythyn AC: The national hate crime statistics for England and Wales 2022-23 were released on 5 October. They show a 4 per cent decrease in recorded hate crimes across Wales compared to last year. This is the first annual fall since the Home Office began collecting comparable data 10 years ago.
When hate crime levels decrease, there is concern that it can mean crimes are going unreported. So, we will continue to focus on encouraging both victims and bystanders to report incidents through initiatives such as our Hate Hurts Wales campaign and awareness-raising activities of the Wales hate support centre. Through listening to people with lived experience, we are increasing our understanding of the barriers that prevent victims from reporting. The Wales hate support centre's lived experience advocacy forum is central to this approach.
However, this overall 4 per cent drop in recorded hate crime does not tell the whole story. Despite the drop in the total amount, there was a 26 per cent increase in religious hate crimes and a 22 per cent increase in transgender hate crimes. These increases may be due to these incidents being underreported in previous years. For example, two years ago, religious hate crime dropped 25 per cent. Better awareness and better recording by police forces may have also contributed to this increase, but ultimately, any increase is clearly a cause for concern.
The increase in transphobic hate is a stark reminder that whilst we have made progress on LGBTQ+ equality, we can by no means take progress for granted and there remains work to be done. It's why our LGBTQ+ action plan, launched back in February, with its actions to tackle hate, continues to be a necessary priority. And as I said during the oral statement when launching the plan, the trans community continues to be targeted on social media and by a media narrative designed to pitch people against one another.
I repeat what I said back then: the Welsh Government stands together within and with all of our LGBTQ+ communities, and as politicians and public figures, we can and must be better. Let us be clear; there are real-life consequences to harmful and hateful rhetoric. So, I hope that all Members will join me today in supporting National Hate Crime Awareness Week. Let us use this opportunity to send a clear message that hateful abuse and violence should not and will not be tolerated in Wales. And let's all take both individual and collective responsibility for playing our own part in putting out, rather than fanning, the flames of hate. Diolch.

Altaf Hussain AS: Thank you for your statement, Deputy Minister. As you rightfully state, we all have to stand up to hate. The number of hate crimes recorded by police forces in Wales has almost trebled over the last decade. The vast majority of these crimes were racially motivated, with race being a factor in 62 per cent of recorded hate crimes in Wales. Twenty-one per cent were motivated by sexual orientation, 14 per cent by disability, 5 per cent by transgender identity and 4.5 per cent by religion. The stats paint a worrying picture, but hate crime still makes up a small percentage of overall criminal activity. Many scholars believe the rise in reported hate crimes is due to an increase in awareness—that we are becoming more intolerant of intolerance—but one hate crime is one too many.
Deputy Minister, I'm happy to stand with you and state that hateful abuse and violence has no place in our nation. While we will never totally eliminate hate, we should be able to break down the barriers between disparate communities and make hate crime less likely to occur. It is often said that we hate what we fear, and fear of the other seems to be a key driver of hate crime. Our focus should be in educating future generations not to hate differences, but to embrace them.
Deputy Minister, what discussions have you had with the Minister for education about the role that education plays in tackling hate? Have you discussed with him the need to employ a more diverse teaching workforce? As part of its anti-racist plan, the Welsh Government has made it mandatory to teach black, Asian and minority ethnic histories and experiences as part of Welsh history lessons, yet only a tiny percentage of teachers are from BAME backgrounds. Last year, only 0.2 per cent of newly qualified teachers were black, and just 44 out of nearly 1,500 newly qualified teachers had a BAME background. How can we possibly hope to put an end to race discrimination and, ultimately, hate crime, via education and celebration of diversity, if our teachers are not representative?
Finally, Deputy Minister, in your opening remarks, you highlight the terrible events unfolding in Israel. While we all pray for peace in the region, we must also do all we can to prevent a rise in domestic hate crime. I was delighted to see leaders of the Christian, Muslim and Jewish faiths standing shoulder to shoulder in London this morning in a bid to discourage any form of hatred or violence in the UK. How can we in Wales help spread that message to our communities? After all, we're all one people, one race—the human race. Diolch yn fawr.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Diolch. I thank Altaf Hussain for that thoughtful and comprehensive contribution to what is a really important statement today, as part of our collective work to tackle hate crime in all communities across the country. You're right in saying, Altaf, that one hate crime is one too many. We talk about the statistics, but for every statistic, that is a person, and that's a person who has probably experienced something that we find difficult to put into words. That one person is always, absolutely, one too many.
You raised the importance of education in terms of embedding things in our curriculum to tackle things like bullying, whether that's homophobic or on the basis of race, and the work we're doing in terms of Wales becoming the first part of the UK to make it mandatory, as you said, to teach black, Asian and minority ethnic histories and experiences through the new Curriculum for Wales. But you're right to say that the role in terms of making sure that we recruit teachers from a diverse background is really important too, because we all know that you can't be what you can't see; you need to have that to aspire to as a child and young person, as well. So, there is a focus there, and work, as part of the anti-racist Wales plan, to recruit teachers from ethnic minority communities, and incorporate anti-racist practice. It's something that we continue to build on through an initial teacher education recruitment plan, and providing incentives for ethnic minority teacher training. But I'm sure that it's something the Member will be happy to work with us on in Wales to actually support and raise awareness and build on that in the future.

Sioned Williams AS: Thank you for the statement, Deputy Minister.

Sioned Williams AS: On their website, South Wales Police state that hate crime comes in many different forms and strikes at the heart of communities. It's so true, because hate crime undermines the very fabric by which communities are bound. Whatever our differences as individuals, be it our ethnicities, our genders, our disabilities, the way we worship or the way we love, our communities share humanity, we share a nation. And every community shares an obligation to respect those differences, because it's through togetherness, seeing each other and all being equally part of our nation that we will eradicate the prejudice and ignorance that leads to hate crime.
I wholeheartedly agree with you that we must hold those who have power and a public platform to account if they do not take up their responsibility, their moral and legal duty to foster this togetherness through their words. There are Conservative politicians in Wales, in the UK and beyond who have knowingly and cynically embraced populist politics that would sow division rather than foster understanding and empathy, and provoke and embolden prejudice rather than encourage tolerance and acceptance. Because hate speech can lead to increases in violent hate crime. Do you agree, Deputy Minister, that hate speech alone, when attacking the dignity and equality of a person or group, cannot just be seen as causing an action, but itself is an action, harmful in itself, as it undermines social equality and thus the human rights of the individual or group not to suffer discrimination? [Interruption.] It's a statement, Janet.
In a few weeks, I will be sponsoring an event in the Senedd to mark Islamophobia Awareness Month. It aims to highlight the impacts that ignorance-fuelled discrimination can have on Muslims and showcase the positive contribution Muslims make within our society. Their excellent slogan is:
'Take part in the conversation, be part of the solution.'
You referenced the tragic events in the middle east, and we have seen an increase in antisemitic attacksand Islamaphobic attacks. You said that Ministers are speaking to community leaders, so how, specifically, is the Government going to address the risks posed to people of Muslim and Jewish faith in Wales, given the current tensions?
Attitudes and actions don't manifest within a vacuum; people are not inherently hateful. The surge in hatred towards trans people, for example, is the consequence of hate-fuelled politics. Plaid Cymru is proud of the work that's been done through the co-operation agreement in terms of trying to ensure equality for the LGBTQ+ community. However, as you said, there's a lot of work to do and we are far away from our goal of being the most LGBTQ+ friendly nation in Europe with those statistics showing an increase in hate crime across Wales and the UK, particularly towards the trans community. What are we going to do to address how we are increasingly seeing more spaces for harmful conversations about the rights of trans people in Wales? How are we going to address that?
On their website, South Wales Police say:
'We're here and ready to help anyone who has been affected by someone else's prejudice, ignorance or violence.'
Do you agree, Deputy Minister, that until we have full devolution of justice and policing, we are risking the well-being and rights of our LGBTQ+ citizens, and we are putting them at risk of hate, discrimination and injustice? Do you agree that Wales should have the right to legislate on equality matters so that our Senedd will have the appropriate power to protect transpeople and all otherswho suffer prejudice and discrimination? Diolch.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Diolch, Sioned Williams. I know that you're a powerful and passionate advocate in this space, and I'm proud to work and stand with you to work together for a fairer and more equal Wales. I think the point you made at the start really struck me—how our communities share humanity. It reminds me of the things we've said, that we've got more in common than that which divides us. Nobody is inherently hateful or born prejudiced, so it goes back to what we said before about the importance of education.
There's the point you make around the impact of words and spoken hate crimes and the impact they can have—it doesn't happen in a vacuum, it does have an impact. It's the things that we say in this place, the things that we say on social media. I think we've mentioned before, haven't we, when we've had these conversations in this Siambr, the old saying, 'Sticks and stones may break my bones but names may never hurt me', and that's not true. What we do know, from the event I was at yesterday and our work with the hate crime centre in Wales, is that things that are said can lead to action in the future. So, it doesn't exist in a vacuum, which is why we all have to be very conscious, mindful and better about what we say, because it does have an impact on others. It could just be words, but those words can hurt. Ultimately, it can lead to physical and harmful actions as well. I think that's part of the reason why education is really important too over what a hate crime is, as well as stopping it and preventing it in the first place.
To touch on where we are now in terms of the horrific events unfolding in the middle east, and the work that my colleagues are doing to work with and support communities in Wales, clearly we'd be concerned by any reports or possibility of increases of hate crime targeted towards Jewish and Muslim communities in Wales, or anywhere in the UK. Very much the message to members of those communities is, however difficult that is, to report any hate incidents, and that can be done by contacting the police or through the Wales hate support centre run by Victim Support. As well as the meetings that my colleague the Minister for Social Justice is undertaking, we've also asked our Wales hate support centre to monitor any spikes in reporting of antisemitic and Islamophobic hate crime and to ensure that service users are getting the support that they need and deserve. I also look forward to the event that you're hosting in the Senedd to tackle Islamophobia, and I very much hope that I'm able to come along to support that on the day as well.

Ken Skates AC: Minister, thank you for your statement; it is hugely important at this moment in time. I'm pleased that the theme for this year's hate crime awareness week is faith hate, and especially antisemitism, which have no place whatsoever in our society. Minister, would you agree that, whilst we regularly talk about Welsh hiraeth, we must also face up to the fact that there is still too much hate here in Wales? I was astonished and appalled by the hatred recently targeted at the S4C presenter Ameer Davies-Rana. I think it illustrates that hatred still hides in all parts of Wales, in English and in Welsh-speaking communities, but social media gives racist, homophobic and faith-hating cowards a keyboard to spread their poison, and so would you agree that online media platforms must be more responsible and indeed proactive in stopping hate crime, and would Welsh Government work with Members in this Chamber who have a deep understanding of this subject area, and attempt to better protect people from consuming messages of hate? And finally, Minister, further to Altaf Hussain's question on the role of education, would you agree that, through the new curriculum, diversity in all its forms must be promoted and celebrated, and that young people should not be deprived of the right—of the right—to be whomever and whatever they wish to be, free of fear, intolerance and hatred?

Hannah Blythyn AC: Can I absolutely associate with the comments that Ken Skates made at the end of his contribution there, that every young person should have the right to be who they are and be themselves, free from horror and from hatred as well, and the importance of education, not just in terms of the work we're doing to tackle hate-based bullying or transphobic, homophobic bullying, or any bullying on the basis of anybody's identity, but also the more positive work that we're trying to do in terms of the new curriculum and kind of embracing and celebrating our diversity as a positive, and positive benefit, not just to the school community, but the wider community and country here in Wales?
And I was actually on a very recent school visit—it wasin Haverfordwest—and I wish I could do some of these school visits every week; it would probably give me some of the inspiration and the drive just to remind us why we're doing this sometimes. They’d actually supported a member of staff there to transition, and they'd done it in partnership, actually: they'd involved their trade union and the senior management team and the staff and the students as well. But they also had a very inclusive club, which is called the Rainbow Room, and I met these young people and, actually, there was a moment of, 'Who is this person that’s come in that we don't know, and we're just going to sit here for a bit and be quite shy and not say anything.’ Well, then they started to open up about the value of having that support and the difference that made and having that space they can just go along to with one of their friends, and nobody asking questions, and just during the day. And I asked them, ‘What one thing would you like me to take back about how we can support you? What do you think your Welsh Government should be doing, and what we should be doing in this Senedd on your behalf?' There were a few different things, and one of the things that really struck me was around what we can all do to create that sense of community cohesion and a place where people can—particularly young people—feel safe and supported to be themselves. One young person there actually flagged the difference that a local Pride event had made to them, because that was going on and they saw the way in which most members of the community were embracing it and supporting it—it gave them the courage and the confidence to have a conversation with their parents.
So, I think it shows, actually, there are things we can do and we are doing here in Wales, whether that is our grassroots Pride fund or the work we're doing in education, but also to tackle some of that hate crime that—. Yes, the figures are—[Inaudible.]—one hate crime is one too many, but we must keep going with the positive things we're doing to make a difference to people's lives.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: And finally, Gareth Davies.

Gareth Davies AS: Diolch, Deputy Llywydd, and thank you very much for your statement this afternoon, Deputy Minister, and a very apt statement at that, given the current problems in the middle east, and I welcome the Welsh Government's condemnation of antisemitism, given the previous issues within the Labour Party on that particular subject.
My question is around police forces and what discussions or conversations you may have had with police forces, in particular to police community support officers, given that's a devolved competency, on the triggers of hate crime and the local variants of hate crime that might take place in rural areas, and targeted hate crime, depending on the demographics of that particular area, because the targeted hate crime that's apparent in Cardiff, for example, may be different to that in other parts of Wales. So, what effort is the Welsh Government making to tailor this message to maximise awareness in all parts of Wales, so we can best educate people that hate crime isn't accepted in any form?

Hannah Blythyn AC: Gareth Davies raises an important point in terms of making sure that the work we do not only reaches out but embraces and involves all communities across Wales, and it links back to things that my colleague Ken Skates said previously,in terms of how we may have come a long way in the past few decades in terms of where we are as a country and a society, but we cannot be complacent that all the work has been done, because sadly, as we can see from the hate crime statistics, that hate does still exist in all corners of the country as well. So, we're working very closely through our various mechanisms, through the policing partnership board, but also, as I said, there's been an event specifically in north Wales, with the north Wales police and crime commissioner, to identify and support people within those communities. And we're really pleased that we are able to support the hate support centrein Wales to actually have that targeted support as well, and the information that they give us. And we work with those partners to make sure we can work in partnership to tackle all those different forms of hate crime, but actually understanding what the challenges are in different communities and at the same time making sure we are working together collectively, not just to educate, but to call it out as well.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I thank the Deputy Minister.

6. The Greenhouse Gas Emissions Trading Scheme (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2023

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Item is 6 is next: the Greenhouse Gas Emissions Trading Scheme (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2023. I call on the Minister for Climate Change to move the motion—Julie James.

Motion NDM8377 Lesley Griffiths
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 27.5, approves that the draft The Greenhouse Gas Emissions Trading Scheme (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2023 is made in accordance with the draft laid in the Table Office on 19 September 2023.

Motion moved.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I move the motion. I'm pleased to be able to bring forward the Greenhouse Gas Emissions Trading Scheme (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2023, which makes minor amendment to the Greenhouse Gas Emissions Trading Scheme Order 2020. These amendments help align the UK emissions trading scheme with wider climate policies and decarbonisation technologies. The Order caps the free allocation of aircraft operators at 100 per cent of their verified emissions, changes the classification of electricity generators to enable fairer access to free UK ETS allocations, clarifies that the carbon capture plans are eligible for free UK ETS allocations, and covers England, Wales and Scotland in territorial extent. Advice was sought from the Climate Change Committeeon the proposals covered in the Order. By making the UK emissions trading scheme more coherent with wider climate policies, we will be better placed to achieve Wales's decarbonisation goals. I wish to offer my thanks to the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee for their scrutiny of the Order, and I therefore commend the motion to the Chamber. Diolch.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call on the Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: I'm sorry, but I don't think I need to speak on item 6—

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Well, I've got you down for this item and the next item, Huw.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: No, not this item, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'm sorry.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Not on this item. Okay. I call on the Minister for Climate Change to reply to the debate.

Julie James AC: I don't have anything else to add.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No, therefore the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

7. Legislative Consent Motion on the Levelling-up and Regeneration Bill

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Item 7 is the legislative consent motion on the Levelling-up and Regeneration Bill, and I call on the Minister for Climate Change to move the motion—Julie James.

Motion NDM8378 Julie James
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 29.6 agrees that provisions in the Levelling-up and Regeneration Bill in so far as they fall within the legislative competence of the Senedd, should be considered by the UK Parliament.

Motion moved.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Today's debate has been rescheduled a number of times as we respond to a continued ping-pong in amendments to the Bill. Firstly, I want to thank the committees for their consideration of the legislative consent memorandums. While the UK Government has failed to meet its manifesto promises of replacing EU funds in full and no power being lost to Wales, Welsh Ministers continue to seek a co-decision-making role on agreeing the outcomes and how funds supporting the levelling-up agenda should be spent. This helps to ensure policy coherence and avoid duplication. The levelling-up missions in Part 1 of the Bill are high-level aspirational outcomes linked to specific areas: education, health, transport, employment and economic development—areas I regard as within the legislative competence of the Senedd. The Senedd could pass equivalent provisions to those contained within Part 1, because of the objective of levelling-up to significantly reduce geographical disparity in the UK, and that is not a reserved matter.
Through the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, we already have a set of integrated, long-term goals, designed to enhance the economic, social, environmental and cultural well-being of the whole of Wales for current and for future generations. These were developed by the people of Wales for Wales and agreed by this place. In my view, the amendments tabled by the UK Government on 4 July 2023 on Part 1 improve upon the position set out in the original revised LCM,laid on this Bill on 25 November 2022, to the extent that I can now recommend that the Senedd gives consent to the Bill. Our concerns about the implementation of this duty, its interaction with funding allocations and how the UK Government will discharge their duties to have regard to the role of the Welsh Ministers and the Senedd remain. We would expect to utilise the inter-governmental arrangements for Welsh Ministers to be engaged in this agenda. This helps to ensure policy coherence and avoid duplication.
Dirprwy Lywydd, turning to the other main provision within the Bill, the Bill proposes replacing the existing system of environmental assessment, namely environmental impact assessment and strategic environmental assessment, commonly referred to by their acronyms EIA and SEA. These processes were derived from the respective European directives, while primarily transposed through regulations made under the European Communities Act 1972. Now the Act has been repealed on leaving the European Union, there are no longer enabling powers available to make comprehensive amending regulations. However, the case for a framework of environmental legislation has not changed. It is vital we ensure standards of protection remain, and the assessment frameworks need to be kept up to date across the wide range of devolved areas of agriculture, marine, land drainage, water resources, highways, ports, forestry, transport and works, and planning. The Bill enables us to amend assessment regimes to keep them up to date, which is vitally important because consent regimes in England and reserved consent regimes across Wales will move to the environmental outcomes approach, whether or not devolved consents stay with SEA and EIA. It is therefore important that the Welsh Ministers have the regulation-making powers to use, should we need them, to ensure cross-jurisdictional projects are adequately accommodated, even if it means accepting a concurrent-plus approach.
This Bill started in a deeply unsatisfactory state, containing placeholder provisions, which gave the Secretary of State powers to legislate within devolved competence.The only acknowledgement of devolution was the requirement for the Secretary of State to consult the Welsh Ministers prior to making planning data and environmental outcome report regulations. As a result of Welsh Government engagement with the UK, the consultation requirements have been amended to provide the Welsh Ministers with the ability to make regulations in devolved areas, and limits the ability of the UK Government to legislate in devolved areas by requiring prior consent.
I fully recognise and share Members’ frustrations with the number and timing of the many amendments to this Bill, which have hindered scrutiny of the proposals. In considering whether to bring forward the environmental outcome report approach within individual sectors, I will be expecting full engagement with Welsh stakeholders. Given the safeguard of the consent mechanism, I consider the use of concurrent-plus powers in this case to be both pragmatic and consistent with our principles for UK Bills. This approach will enable delivery of the potential benefits of the Bill, as set out in my supplementary legislative consent memorandum, avoiding contradictions and uncertainty in the law, and to enable smooth consent routes for cross-jurisdictional schemes that may be required. Dirprwy Lywydd, I therefore do recommend Members support the motion to give the Senedd's consent to the Bill, and I move the motion. Diolch.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call on the Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I thank the members of my committee. We have produced four reports on the Welsh Government's five legislative consent memoranda for this Bill, with our final report being laid after our committee meeting yesterday afternoon.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Now, we realise this Bill has seemingly exercised and tested the Minister and her team. The progress of the Bill has truly exercised our committee, and it's tested some of the principles that we hold on to quite dearly on behalf of this Senedd. The Minister referred to, in her opening remarks, co-decision making between Governments. We understand that, but co-decision between Governments can, sometimes, mean bypassing scrutiny within this Senedd.
So, in total, our reports drew eight conclusions, made 38 recommendations, reflecting the extent to which, as the Minister has said, the Bill has changed since its introduction to the UK Parliament some 17 months ago. But it also reflects our concerns with some of the quality of some of the memoranda, and a lack of clarity on some issues.
Now, in our first report covering the first two memoranda, which is pertinent to today as well, a majority of Members concluded that Part 1 of the Bill, relating to the levelling-up missions, requires, indeed, the consent of the Senedd. And there was the unanimous agreement that all other Parts of the Bill making provision in devolved areas require the Senedd's consent.
Our nine recommendations in that first report sought clarity on a number of issues and, in particular, two recommendations sought information on why the Minister was seeking executive powers for the Welsh Ministers relating to planning data and environmental outcomes reports. Now, in making these recommendations, we noted the Minister's statement of her being open to persuasion on amendments to the Bill in these policy areas and 'that would benefit Wales but would also protect our devolution settlement'. Our report highlighted that amendments to the Bill providing such executive powers would occur at the end of the UK legislative process and, therefore, they would receive minimal scrutiny through the legislative consent process. As a matter of principle, we stated that any potential benefits for Wales on planning data provisions and environmental outcome reports would be best realised through a Welsh Government Bill subject to full scrutiny by this Senedd. This would be better than negotiations between Welsh and UK Governments and subsequent tabling of amendments in the UK Parliament late on in the legislative process, which bypasses that meaningful Senedd scrutiny.
So, in places, we didn't find the response to our first report to be satisfactory, and we pursued concerns in our second report, which focused on memorandum No. 3, and we made six further recommendations.
Our second report noted the Minister’s confirmation that the Welsh Government would be able to bring forward primary legislation covering planning data provisions and environmental outcomes reports. However, some of the additional commentary of the Minister in that letter appeared to suggest that the barrier to using a Welsh Government Bill was that it did not feature within the First Minister's legislative programme for that year, or a suitable vehicle did not exist within that programme. Now, we expressed concern at the implications of this suggestion that the Welsh Government would consider UK Bills can be used to make provision in devolved areas in these circumstances. Now, this is an issue that we said we will continue to monitor and probe because of its wider implications for not only how law is made for Wales, but also the principles of devolution.
Memorandum No. 4 was laid during the summer recess and our third report, published in early October, made a further 23 recommendations. This is an unprecedented number, Dirprwy Lywydd, at the end of a legislative consent process. The Minister has provided a detailed response, but it came in just after 3 p.m. today, so unfortunately we simply cannot address fully the issues within that and the response from the Minister. However, a brief initial analysis suggests there are some areas of concern that I think, Minister, we'll probably write to you again on. Responses to recommendations 18 and 22 are such examples. But, for today, and for this scrutiny process, it is important to note that making a decision on this Bill in the absence of timely information does place Senedd Members at a disadvantage.
Now, the reason for the 23 recommendations in our third report was the lack of information in memorandum No. 4 on some significant issues. We concluded that memorandum No. 4 had not reached a satisfactory standard, and our concerns were in two broad areas. Firstly, the Minister has changed her position and is now recommending consent for Part 1 of the Bill on levelling-up missions, but there's little in-depth explanation for this change. Now, this is particularly important given the Minister’s previous correspondence, and indeed today, that the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 already covers some provisions in Part 1 of the Bill and that, in quotes:
'It is not for UK Government Ministers to set targets for these matters in Wales, nor to report on achieving these to the UK Parliament.'
And, of equal importance, we note the views of the Counsel General, who said in June that Part 1 of the Bill, in quotes,
'represents an inappropriate intrusion into the legislative competence of the Senedd.'
So, recommendation 7 asked whether the Welsh Government still held this view, and I cannot see, Dirprwy Lywydd, that the Minister's letter this afternoon addresses this directly, so I hope the Minister can address this point in her closing remarks. My apologies, Dirprwy Lywydd; because I had the letter late this afternoon, I'm trying to respond to a couple of points there, if I have your latitude.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: You have.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Diolch yn fawr iawn.
Moreover, the Minister emphasised in memorandum No. 4 that the Welsh Government is still of the view that the Senedd could pass equivalent provisions to those contained within Part 1 of the Bill, and referenced the need to use inter-governmental arrangements and co-decision making in relation to the levelling-up agenda.
So, the Welsh Government’s changed position raises important questions, including, 'How does the Senedd subsequently scrutinise these matters?' Twelve of our recommendations are aimed at seeking answers to those questions. So, the Minister's response, received this afternoon, is going to take some unpicking, Dirprwy Lywydd; it simply isn't possible to consider it in the time available, or to address the issues in this speech.
But the second area of concern, the subject of six recommendations, was on the acquisition of these concurrent plus regulation-making powers for Welsh Ministers, right at the end of the legislative process, in relation to planning data provisions and environmental outcomes reports. There's no information provided in memorandum No. 4 about the scope of each power delegated, the policy intent for each power, or when the powers will be used. So, it means that the UK Parliament, rather than the Senedd, will be responsible for delegating powers to the Welsh Ministers and deciding the scrutiny procedures that should apply to these regulations laid before the Senedd by the Welsh Ministers. So, the Senedd’s scrutiny function is again bypassed and replaced by what will be, in effect, a 'take or leave it' provision on a legislative consent motion. We just don't believe, Dirprwy Lywydd, that this approach represents an adequate substitute for the scrutiny and law-making function of this Senedd.
So, in conclusion, whichever reason the Welsh Government may have for taking this approach in this instance, this is now the result. So, our LJC committee, Dirprwy Lywydd, must continue to analyse and to comment on this, to be vigilant and flag these issues for Members' consideration, and be consistent in urging the Government to reconsider this approach, in its generality as well as in this instance. Diolch yn fawr.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I allowed the extension on that contribution because I felt it was important we heard from the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee on this matter, but I'm sure all other contributors will keep to the five-minute limit.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call on the Chair of the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee, Llyr Gruffydd.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. The Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee has published three reports on the Levelling-up and Regeneration Bill, covering the first four memoranda. After being laid on 6 October, memorandum No. 5 was referred to us on 10 October. The reporting deadline for report submission was 16 October, but it was impossible for the committee to meet that deadline. Our reports on the memoranda focus on the clauses relating to planning data and environmental outcome reports, which are of particular interest to the committee.
When the Bill was introduced, these clauses provided powers to the Secretary of State to make regulations for Wales in areas of devolved competence rather than the Welsh Ministers. In the committee's first two reports, we concluded that we weren't in a position to make a recommendation to the Senedd on the matter of legislative consent, given that there were ongoing inter-governmental negotiations to ensure that the clauses fully reflected devolved competence.
Memorandum No. 4 was referred to us on 12 September. This memorandum included amendments to the clauses relating to planning data and environmental outcomes reports that were made during the Report Stage in the House of Lords. The clauses, as amended, are a marked improvement on what was included in the Bill as introduced. However, we noted in our report that there were two points that caused us concern. Given these concerns, once again, we concluded that we weren't in a position to make a recommendation on the matter of consent.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: So, our first point of concern relates to the use of concurrent powers and the bypassing of Senedd scrutiny of planning data and environmental outcomes reports regulations made by the Secretary of State on behalf of the Welsh Minister. Now, this issue has already been covered by Huw, so, in the interests of time, I won't go into further detail other than to say that we share the concerns that he expressed.
The second point of concern relates to the requirement on the Welsh Ministers to have regard to the UK Government's environmental improvement plan when making environmental outcomes reports regulations for Wales. Now, the plan sets out how the UK Government will improve the natural environment in England; it has no relevance to Wales. In comparison, the Scottish Ministers and the relevant Northern Ireland department must have regard to environmental improvement plans for their respective nations. In our report, we asked the Minister to explain whether, and, if so, why, she believed the requirement on the Welsh Ministers was appropriate. Now, since we reported, the Bill has been amended so that the Welsh Ministers must have regard to Wales's national natural resources policy when making environmental outcomes reports regulations. This is, of course, to be welcomed. This amendment was covered by memorandum No. 5, which, as I've already said, the committee was not able to consider.
Dirprwy Lywydd, I'd like, once again, to highlight the worrying trend of amendments to clauses for which consent is required being made at the end of the legislative process in the UK Parliament. This provides limited opportunity for Senedd committees to consider fully the implications of the provisions for which consent is being sought for the development and delivery of future Welsh policy. I'd like to draw Members' attention to the Minister's response to our latest report, which we received just this morning, which we've asked to be published alongside today’s Plenary agenda, and I hope that it'll help inform Members' decision on whether to give consent to the Bill. Diolch.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Alun Davies.

Alun Davies AC: I'm grateful to you, Deputy Presiding Officer, for this opportunity to comment on this LCM. I have to say—I may as well be absolutely honest with the whole Chamber—when I made the speaking request, I did assume that the Government would be asking us to vote against it. So, I place myself in a somewhat invidious position of having to both speak against it and vote for it—[Interruption.] I've done it before, the Member says, and it is a tradition in this place, I hope; I've tried to create that. But I think it's important that we do not simply accept these legislative consent motions, but we actually debate the issues that are around them. When levelling-up was launched by I think it was Boris Johnson, when he was making up with Michael Gove, he was very clear. 'Levelling up', he said,
'is a moral, social and economic programme for the whole of government.'
and he was very clear about that. It's interesting that he used the word 'moral' programme; it's not something you associate easily with Boris Johnson. And he was very clear that it was something that united Government, both in its actions and decisions, but also in what it does, how it thinks and how it takes those decisions.
So, the Bill that we're debating this afternoon isn't simply about a programme, but it's about how decisions are taken on that programme, and I commend the Minister on the work that she's done in negotiations with the UK Government about ensuring that Welsh Ministers are involved in those decisions. I accept the points that have been made by both committee Chairs that this place also needs to be involved in those. But there's a more fundamental point at play here, isn't there? If you read the White Paper on levelling-up, published some years ago, it starts off with an executive summary that says what a successful place the United Kingdom has been, and then it gets to the heart of the matter. It says that there are more geographical disparities within the United Kingdom than in any other country that would be in any way comparable with the United Kingdom. And then it lists what those disparities are, and it goes through almost any demographic comparator that you can use, whether it's on health or the economy or social indicators. Every single one of them has a range of disparities, and we all know that, in some parts of the United Kingdom, we have concentrations of wealth and that the policies of the United Kingdom Government are there to generate not only more wealth, but to maintain wealth in that place, and that levelling-up was a means by which crumbs are deposited from that table into other areas. I'll take an intervention.

Gareth Davies AS: Would you accept, with those points you made, that the difference in political colours in devolved nations can play a part in that process of the levelling-up agenda being somewhat complicated through political indecision and political differences between parties that act as obstacles to achieving levelling-up funding, rather than if it was directly administered by the UK Government?

Alun Davies AC: The Member is still quite new to this place, but my advice to him would be that, if he's going to intervene on some of these issues, he should read the White Paper that I'm describing, and you should read it before you intervene. Had you read it, then you would know that the UK Government didn't make that comparison in the White Paper, and that's not what the UK Government were saying. The UK Government were referring to England as much as they were referring to disparities across the United Kingdom. You need to listen to what your own Government in London is saying. You—[Interruption.] No, listen to that. Don't interrupt. Listen to that. Listen to it, because I've read it and I've understood it.
And let me say this: I believe—and I say this as a matter of sorrow as much as anything else—that levelling-up is dead. It's dead. I don't believe that the UK Government were ever committed to it, but the moment they took the decision on HS2, it died. And it died because every single one of us knows that if that money was required to deliver a transport programme, or any other programme of that sort, and if that money was required in London or the south-east of England, the money would have been found. And the reality is that the UK Government would not deliver that programme, and will not deliver that programme, because it doesn't matter to them because it's not something that is being delivered in the south-east of England or in London. We have a UK Government from London for London, and that is as true for the people in England as it is for those of us sitting here. That is something that we need to address.
So, Minister, I obviously support—[Interruption.] Okay, fine, fair enough. I'll take the intervention.

Darren Millar AC: You've made a point about regional disparity. What about the regional disparity here in Wales? What about the fact that north Wales is constantly overlooked when it comes to investment by the Welsh Government? And wouldn't you prefer that the Welsh Government do some levelling up across our country, rather than criticising the efforts of the UK Government to level up across the UK?

Alun Davies AC: A more uncharitable figure would argue that perhaps the representatives from some constituencies aren't as strong as others. But I don't believe—[Interruption.] I don't believe—[Interruption.] I don't believe the point—. I don't believe that the point that the Member is making is a valid point. But there's a morefundamental point than that, of course, because within Wales we don’t have the financial structures and mechanisms and means of delivering redistribution in the way that you do across the United Kingdom. And over the last, say, century, the United Kingdom has created more wealth than almost any other comparable country in the world. It has also created more inequality than any other comparable country in the world, or certainly in Europe, and it is the lack of the redistribution of wealth, the creation of inequality, that is the point that I seek to make this afternoon.
But I’m testing the patience of the Deputy Presiding Officer twice in one afternoon, and I’ve learned that I shouldn’t really do that. So, I’ll finish with this point: whatever the legislation that is passed through the Westminster Parliament, whatever the agreements that have been made in this negotiation, whatever the vote this afternoon, levelling-up will not address inequality and will not deliver the redistribution of wealth that we require in the United Kingdom. I believe that we should, as a Parliament—and, I hope, the Welsh Government as a Government—make the case to the United Kingdom that we need more fundamental reform of the United Kingdom state and the United Kingdom Government, and the institutions of that state and the institutions of that Government, to ensure that we have real redistribution, real addressing of inequality, and a levelling-up that will be worth the term, and worth another White Paper.

Adam Price AC: To follow Alun Davies, it certainly is true, if you look at evidence around the world, at states that have successfully lowered the economic gap between the different parts of their state, then actually redistribution of economic opportunity, wealth, goes hand in hand with redistribution of political power as well. We see it in the case of Germany, for example, to a large extent, and in other places as well. And, indeed, that is reflected, ironically, in the levelling-up missions. It’s the twelfth mission, which is 'Empower local leaders and communities', but of course it’s only referring to devolution within England, because as far as we are concerned in this place, this is not a levelling-up Bill for us, it is a levelling-down Bill, which takes away power and actually inhibits us from doing the kind of economic regenerative work that is necessary in order to drive up prosperity in every part of Wales. And in that—[Interruption.] Yes, go on.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Gareth Davies AS: All I would say on that point is that there is devolution in England as well, and I was mentioning it to Alun, the fact that you've got city mayors in different parts of England, regional mayors, some of a different political ideology. So, the point I was making was more that there are political obstacles that are naturally in place because of those devolution—. It's not an argument against it; it's just making the point that that is a political reality, even in England.

Adam Price AC: Yes, but the point is that this Bill and the legislative consent memorandum that has come before us now, they run roughshod, they undermine our democracy here, and they actually undermine our ability to drive up economic opportunity for all of our people. And that's why it's disappointing that the Government has changed its mind.
It's strange in the light of—as the Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee said—the comments of the Counsel General in relation to this Bill. And the fact is that we're making a decision in the dark, here, aren't we? The Business Committee asked the LJC committee to bring forward a report, and there are 23 recommendations in one of those reports actually asking for further information because of a lack of clarity from the Government in the memorandum. We got that response 90 minutes before the Minister got up. Who here has had the opportunity to actually understand what we are actually being asked to vote upon?
One of those responses refers to the reason why the Government changed its mind. It essentially says that there was a necessary fetter now on the UK Government because the Government had negotiated a report that has to be put before Parliament, which will set out the consultation that it has had with the Welsh Government, and through the Welsh Government, presumably, with the Senedd, and it has to have due regard. Well, you know, the right to be consulted is also the opportunity to be ignored. And in the same letter the Minister goes on to express the Government's continuing frustration with how unhelpful the attitude of the Government is in relation to the shared prosperity fund or the programme announced in terms of town regeneration, which completely ignored the Welsh Government, and various other aspects or examples of how the UK Government continues to ignore the rightful role of this place in actually speaking up for the people of Wales.
So, why on earth, then, was the Government convinced by simply the responsibility to produce a report to the—? What will that report say? 'We consulted with the Welsh Government, we didn't agree with them and we decided to carry on'—that's what we're going to get. So, I would ask the Minister whether she could put on record, because it's one of the questions of the committee that wasn't answered, actually, in your letter, whether you still regard Part 1 of the Bill as
'an inappropriate intrusion into the legislative competence of the Senedd.'
That's what the Counsel General said only a few weeks before the meeting that happened that appears to have changed your mind. Do you now take a different view from the formulation that the Counsel General put before us when he was making his remarks?

Rhys ab Owen AS: We've heard on several occasions concerns in this place regarding the LCM process; we've heard many of them stated again this afternoon, and the Chair of LJC and Adam Price have eloquently set out the scrutiny deficit surrounding this LCM. Unlike Alun Davies, I'll be speaking against and voting against this LCM, but I will start on a positive note. I was very pleased that the Minister has managed to amend the Bill so that Wales is not bound to a UK-wide environmental improvement plan. The idea that we'd be bound to the anti-green policies coming from Westminster is frightening, and it's crucial that we keep our hands on the powers over the environment.
However, I'm very concerned that this Bill continues the trend of centralisation of decision making to UK Ministers; in this case, to the levelling-up Secretary. Yet again, we see the terrible practice of Henry VIII clauses being used. This is poor law making that not only causes major constitutional issues, but makes the law far more uncertain and takes away crucial scrutiny power. They were created by the infamous King as a way to undermine Parliament, and their use today is an erosion of the powers of our legislatures in the United Kingdom. Like their namesake, can we please consign Henry VIII clauses to the history books?
Local authorities have raised concerns that under section 94 they will be forced into complying with the national development management policy rather than providing their own local plan. The initial draft of the Bill allowed no legal limit for the level of interference from the UK Government, and while I'm glad that an amendment has been passed to allow for public and parliamentary scrutiny, the power still rests, ultimately, in the hands of the Secretary for levelling-up.
Now, the levelling-up Secretary has insisted that this Bill will be for the benefit of the people of Wales. Well, I have some major concerns about that, especially as that was promised to us with regard to the high speed 2 line. Despite the numerous levelling-up programmes we've had since Brexit, the Welsh budget has still been cut by nearly £1 billion. I'm sure we can all agree with Adam Price that this feels much more like levelling down rather than levelling up.
Finally, Minister, I was very disappointed to see that this Bill fails to repeal the cruel Vagrancy Act 1824. As a young barrister, I often saw homeless people being prosecuted in our magistrates' courts simply for trying to survive. The Bill merely asks the Secretary of State to assess the impact of the Bill. Minister, surely—surely—we don't need any further assessments. This is totally at odds with your recent announcement to this Senedd. I hope we can all agree that an Act that continues to punish homeless people in Wales and in the UK should also be consigned to the shameful pages of our history books. Diolch yn fawr.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The Minister for Climate Change to reply. Julie James.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I thank all the Members who've made their contributions today. From the start, I've been very clear that the process by which the UK Government has gone about making this Bill has complicated matters significantly. It's hampered my ability and the committees' ability to consider the changes and has generally not been a happy experience all round.
From the outset, I've been clear that provisions on the new environmental outcomes report and planning data do have potential benefits for Wales, and I was clear in the committees that I could be persuaded, if the Bill could be modified, that that was the right way to go. The proposals absolutely started in a deeply unsatisfactory state. They contained placeholder provisions that gave the Secretary of State powers to legislate within devolved competence, and the only acknowledgement in that first situation was the requirement for the Secretary of State to consult with Welsh Ministers prior to making planning data and, indeed, the new EOR regulations. What we now have are provisions for Wales on EOR that respect the devolution settlement and ensure that we can continue to provide new legislation in this area. This has been a long and tortuous route. It has been fraught with difficulty. I want to apologise to both committees for the lateness of the response, however, it's driven by the problems we have with getting any kind of response from the UK Government, and by the lateness of all of the consultation processes on this. So, this has not been a happy process at all.
Just in terms of the environmental outcomes reports, I'll just go through, Llywydd—bear with me, I'm sorry, because there were a lot of points made on this matter. The regulation-making powers for environmental impact assessments and strategic environmental assessments were primarily found in section 2(2) of the European Communities Act 1972. Without that Act in place—it is now repealed—many of our systems will simply stagnate. That is just not an acceptable position to be in. The EIA and SEA regimes cut across a wide range of devolved areas, and I did say in my contribution at the beginning that these included planning, forestry, agriculture, highways, land drainage, marine works and minerals, just to name a few. Given the extensive nature of the provisions, the potential problem of having no primary legislation is real; it is a real danger. We cannot be put into that position. We don't have any availability in our legislative programme to take forward our own legislation in the frame available to us, and therefore, if we do not accept this opportunity, there will be a gap. This does not prevent the Senedd from making later regulations that are better suited to Wales, but it does stop us having an absolute gap in the regulations. And that's the persuasive point as far as I'm concerned.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Minister, will you give way, briefly?

Julie James AC: Yes, of course.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: You make a really good point. We can't fathom the reasons why, beyond that there isn't a gap at the moment, perhaps a parallel Bill couldn't have been brought forward, but it may be a range of reasons. You hold out the potential of bringing forward something that will be better in future, that will replace that scrutiny back here. But the same thing might apply in the future, that there isn't a gap because there are other pressing legislative issues to deal with. Isn't that a danger as well?

Julie James AC: Absolutely. That's a fair point, isn't it? But if this regime worked, then we wouldn't need to do that. If it doesn't work, then there'll be a pressing need to do it. What we have absolutely is we face a gap that is real and present, and that, I cannot fix. So, this is a way to fix that. It may turn out to be a stop-gap fix; it may turn out to be a permanent fix, depending on how it works, but the opportunity is there to change it in the future.
And just to press the point, we can't ignore the new environmental outcomes report approach, because the UK Government will apply it to reserved consent regimes, such as nationally significant infrastructure projects consented on an England-and-Wales basis under the Planning Act 2008. So, this will happen, whether we consent to it or not, and the process in which we engaged has put us into a much better position than we would have been otherwise, and that was the point that I was making. It's not that I'm happy about it—I'm not.
There are three other issues, though. There are real issues that, if we create differences across the border for infrastructure investment projects, that is a real problem. So, 'alignment', I suppose, is the word we want; we want alignment. There may be nuanced differences on this side of the border, but for cross-border projects—many of them are cross-border projects and electricity transmission is one of them, for example—we do not want any such problemsto dissuade investment in Wales. We are really fighting for investment in the grid in Wales, for example, and we do not want investors to be put off by that. So, just having a gap in the legislation would not suit at all. And then it makes sense to avoid duplication and additional processes, so as this rolls out, we'll be able to see what we can do to enhance it, and we have, of course, our own infrastructure Bill going through the moment as well.
The provisions in this Bill provide for an overarching power to make provisions in respect of environmental outcome reports to accompany strategic plans and relevant project consents. They do provide a framework, with powers to set environmental outcomes and a subsequent requirement for a report to be prepared for relevant plans and project consent applications that are specified in the regulations that will follow. It will be slightly clearer than the current system anyway, which has current multiple regulations for those kinds of projects, but we will support any new system with a comprehensive set of guidance and training here in Wales to ensure the smooth transition and to help our stakeholders. So, it's very important that we negotiated that consent from the UK Government.
We are also subject to constraints on the Espooconvention on EIA, the Aarhus convention on information, and any international trade agreements. So, actually, we will be forced into a similar system regardless, because we must be compliant with our other international obligations, irrespective of what we call them or who drafts them. I make no bones about it, Llywydd, this is a compromise position. It is a better position than we would be in if we don't do it, it's not the position I would have liked to have been in, but, in the end, it's a pragmatic approach.
The other point I just wanted to make is that we really wanted to make sure that this provided us with the power to make regulations in areas within the legislative competence of the Senedd. The Secretary of State can only make regulations in devolved areas with our prior consent. We don't need to give that consent, we can make those regulations here. It does give us an additional position that we did not have in the first place, so I just wanted to be clear about that. We've made sure that amendments made to the Government of Wales Act mean that this can be done without requiring UK Government consent, which was a long and tortuous conversation, it has to be said. In my view, Llywydd, that does protectthe Senedd's legislative competence, which I was clear that I wanted to do.
And then, just on the levelling-up missions, because that will be mostly about the environmental outcome reports, we continue to seek a co-decision-making role in agreeing the outcomes and how funds supporting the levelling-up agenda, including the shared prosperity fund, should be spent to avoid duplication and to ensure policy coherence.
It is our view that the Senedd could pass equivalent provisions to those contained in Part 1, and, therefore, it is our view that Part 1 of the Bill does require the consent of the Senedd, which is why we're here. I am content that the amendments tabled by the UK Government on 4 July 2023 improve on the positions set out in the original revised LCM laid on this Bill on 25 November. They clearly indicate a recognition of the role of Senedd Cymru and the Welsh Government in the devolved areas covered by the levelling-up missions and respond to the concerns we have consistently expressed to the UK Government on the Bill. They do place several consultation and due-regard obligations on the UK Government when setting, reporting, revising and reviewing the statement of levelling-up missions and associated methodology. They do require a Minister to report to Parliament on how they have had regard to the role of Senedd Cymru and the Welsh Government, which will be subject to parliamentary scrutiny—

Adam Price AC: Will the Minister give way?

Julie James AC: Yes, of course.

Adam Price AC: Without revealing the exact content of any legal advice you've received, what is your understanding of the justiciability of that 'due regard' phrase?

Julie James AC: I take your point. Of course, due regard can be, 'We've had regard to it, we've decided to do it anyway.' We had long conversations with UK Government Ministers about how we might protect the position of the Welsh Parliament and of the Welsh Government in terms of having to take into account our issues on it. I'm satisfied that in having to write a report to Parliament that sets out why we have a problem—because that's the only reason why they'd be doing it; if we didn't have a problem, there'd be no such report—they would themselves have to go through a process that made them think about why they weren't able to look at that, and, of course, it does expose that to parliamentary scrutiny. I think we would probably be able to develop a similar process here that would enable us to express a view on it. It's not perfect, I completely agree, but it's a great deal better than where we started, and if we don't do this we will have a gap in our legislation, which is much worse. I accept it's a compromise.
Llywydd, I will conclude there, because there are a large number of detailed points made, and I concur with most of them, but in the end, this is a compromise position, and on balance, we think it’s better to have consent for this LCM, and so have the concessions that were given by the UK Government, than not to have it. So, on that basis, I recommend the motion to the house.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there are objections. I will therefore defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

8. Debate: The Children’s Commissioner for Wales’ Annual Report 2022-23

The following amendment has been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Heledd Fychan.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The next item is the debate on the Children’s Commissioner for Wales's annual report, and I call on the Minister for Social Justice to move the motion—Jane Hutt.

Motion NDM8376 Lesley Griffiths
To propose that the Senedd:
Notes the Children's Commissioner for Wales's Annual Report 2022-23.

Motion moved.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. I’m pleased to have the opportunity today to introduce our annual debate on the children’s commissioner’s report. The report provides an opportunity to reflect on the previous year’s work to support children’s rights in Wales. The commissioner’s report sets out the actions they’ve taken to protect and promote children’s rights. It covers a range of activity, from their engagement with children and young people to their research work, and how they’ve fulfilled their statutory function of holding the Welsh Government to account. It also has a vital function of highlighting the issues that concern children and young people in Wales. Finally, it provides us with an independent overview on children’s rights and ensures that we as a Government maintain a collective focus on them. I’d like to start by thanking our Children’s Commissioner for Wales, Rocio Cifuentes, for the report. It’s clear she’s used the first 18 months of her tenure to explore and set out a clear vision for how she wants to shape her time in the role, and I’ve been pleased to meet with the commissioner on a number of occasions. I know she also has regular updates with other ministerial colleagues and officials.
The commissioner’s independent role is crucial in holding the Government to account, and we will continue to work with her for the benefit of all children and young people in Wales. I was very pleased to see that she is very much focused on listening to the voices of children and young people in Wales. During the last year, the commissioner’s team have reached 17,000 children and young people across Wales. This has been a considerable achievement, which I congratulate the commissioner on. Much of this interaction has been through the Ambitions for Wales consultation, which received over 10,000 responses. This included, for the first time, the views of children with profound multiple learning difficulties. This work has provided some valuable insight into the issues that children and young people are most concerned about. The results of the Ambitions for Wales consultation have led to the commissioner setting out her vision in a three-year work plan, designed to enable her to deliver her remit to protect and promote children’s rights. I look forward to seeing her progress over the next three years.
I’d like to draw Members’ attention to the ongoing work of the commissioner in supporting public bodies in taking a children’s rights approach. Putting children and young people at the centre of our public services and learning from our children and young people is so important, and I welcome the commitment of the commissioner’s office in providing this support. We recognise that we need every level of Government to work together in partnership with the children’s third sector if we’re going to support children and young people and their families in the future. I’d like to highlight in particular the commissioner’s investigations and advice service, which specifically advises and supports children and young people if they feel they’ve been treated unfairly or denied their rights. The report includes some moving examples of casework in the last year, and I know that this is an area of work that the commissioner would like to expand.
This report also provides us with an opportunity to reflect on the Welsh Government’s progress on some of the most important issues for children, young people and their families. Earlier this year, the Deputy Minister for Social Services published our children’s rights compliance report, and the report sets out how we have been complying with the due regard duty in the Rights of Children and Young Persons (Wales) Measure 2011. We based the report around the five ways of working in ‘The Right Way: a Children’s Rights Approach’, using case studies to illustrate how these have been applied. I would urge Members to read the report to get a sense of the breadth of work we’re undertaking with and on behalf of children and young people, led by the Deputy Minister for Social Services.
In her report, the commissioner has made 30 recommendations to the Welsh Government, covering 17 policy areas. These include child poverty, mental health and well-being, the reform of children’s social careand education. The commissioner rightly highlights the impact that the cost-of-living crisis, COVID and climate change have had on children and young people and will continue to have on their lives. We as a Government will continue to do all we can within our powers to protect our children from these issues as we continue to strive to improve outcomes for children and young people in Wales.
There has, however, been a great deal of progress made since the end of the children's commissioner's reporting period. We've consulted on our draft child poverty strategy and we're currently analysing the responses. The refreshed child poverty strategy is intended to be a long-term strategy that sets the strategic direction for this and subsequent Governments for the next decade or more to tackle child poverty. I'm pleased that the children's commissioner recognised in her evidence to the Equality and Social Justice Committee that the overall approach and objectives in the draft strategy are the right approach for us to take to tackle child poverty.
On a cross-Government basis, we work together as Ministers to deliver for our children and young people. Publishing the road map for the transformation programme for children's services is a key achievement, with updates being issued to stakeholders and care-experienced children and young people every six months. The current anti-bullying guidance, 'Rights, respect, equality', is being updated this academic year, in particular to strengthen guidance in relation to prejudice-related bullying of all types, emphasising our commitment to equality of opportunity and equity of provision, ensuring that all our learners are properly supported to achieve their full potential and overall equity of outcome. And we continue our commitment to develop a consistent Wales-wide approach to improving neurodivergence services. The issue of private medical diagnosis for neurodivergence is a priority area that we're already addressing within the neurodivergence improvement programme.
The commissioner's annual report provides us with important advice, helping us to think about how we can continue to make improvements to our policies and programmes across the breadth of our responsibilities. I welcome the commissioner's recommendations in her report, which the First Minister will be replying to by the end of November. The views of Members today will help us formulate our responses, and I look forward to this important debate on the children's commissioner's report and our progress in supporting children's rights in Wales. Diolch, Llywydd.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: I have selected the amendment to the motion, and I call on Sioned Williams to move amendment 1.

Amendment 1—Heledd Fychan
Add as new points at end of motion:
Notes that a third of children in Wales were living in poverty between 2019 and 2022, but regrets that this statistic predates the current cost-of-living crisis, meaning that the actual child poverty figure is likely to be far higher.
Supports the Children's Commissioner’s call on the Welsh Government to publish a detailed child poverty strategy which contains specific actions, targets and milestones for delivery.

Amendment 1moved.

Sioned Williams AS: I move the amendment. The purpose of Plaid Cymru's amendment to the Government's motion, which calls on the Senedd to note the children's commissioner's report, is to draw specific attention to aspects of the annual report that call for urgent action. These are not ideological points, they are factual points, and their purpose is to ensure focus and action on work that I am hopeful and confident will unite every Member in the Chamber, namely, that the Government must focus its attention on the fact that we are calling on the Senedd to specifically note that a third of children in Wales were living in poverty between 2019 and 2022, but that we regret that these statistics stem from a period before the current cost-of-living crisis, which means that the true figure for child poverty is likely to be much higher.
In her introduction, the commissioner says:
‘I won’t forget one of the first conversations I had with one member of my young people’s advisory panels about how she was worried that her family wouldn’t be able to afford school transport for her younger brother, and reading some results from our Ambitions for Wales work, where 7 year olds were sharing openly their concerns about the affordability of food for their families. Accordingly, poverty and its effects will be a key pillar of my work and making sure Welsh Government and those in positions of power in Wales are doing all they can to curb its devastating effect on childhoods.’
That's a challenge for all of us—a challenge that demands a response.
I was at the meeting of the Equality and Social Justice Committee where we heard a loud and clear call by the children's commissioner for the Welsh Government to publish a detailed strategy for child poverty that includes specific actions, targets and milestones for delivering that.This is urgent work, and very important work, and the points that thousands of children in Wales have raised as part of the commissioner's engagement work are clear proof of the need for the Government to respond to that call.
The Government must focus its attention on the fact that we are calling on the Senedd to specifically note in this case, because the commissioner's core message is simple, if frightening; plain, if shameful. At the moment, we are hindering and endangering the potential of a huge proportion of the citizens of the future. In responding to the draft child poverty strategy for Wales, the commissioner said that child poverty was the
'biggest issue affecting children in Wales'.
And the voices of these children are calling out to us from the pages of the report. Almost two thirds of children between the ages of 7 and 11 are concerned about whether their families will have enough money. Almost half of children between the ages of 7 and 11 are concerned about having enough to eat. Think about that. More than half of young people between the ages of 12 and 18 are concerned about whether their family will have enough money. A quarter of young people between the ages of 12 and 18 are concerned about having somewhere to live, and 25 per cent are concerned about having enough to eat.
Plaid Cymru fully supports the commissioner's five recommendations to the Welsh Government that are in the report to seriously tackle child poverty, namely: publishing a detailed action plan that includes specific actions, targets and milestones; improving quality, with healthy ingredients, alongside continuing to extend free school meals; investing more in play, sport and leisure facilities and support for young people; providing free bus travel for all children; considering further devolved powers to enable a child payment similar to that seen in Scotland. We also agree that it is the Government's duty to ensure, in the words of the report,
'that the squeeze on the public purse won’t have yet another detrimental effect on younger generations.'
The statement that we had from the finance Minister didn't convince me of that. Could you give us assurance of that, Minister? How is the Government listening to this clear message emanating from the report when planning the budget, and will the child poverty strategy be strengthened, incorporating the political will needed to remove the stain of child poverty, which has already harmed a generation of children since this Government took power? Will their future, and therefore the future of our nation, get the attention it deserves? Because this is not a lone voice predicting doom and demanding a better response; a chorus of experts and campaigners, and, more importantly, children and young people, are declaring with one voice, 'Things need to change.'

Joel James AS: I would also like to start by thanking the commissioner for her report. It is disappointing to read that many young people are still not reaching out to the commissioner and the support that her office has to offer. Indeed, this was an issue raised last year by the Children, Young People and Education Committee, who asked the commissioner to reflect upon the way that the commissioner's office engages with young people, and it is frustrating to see that it is still an issue. With this in mind, I would have hoped for some detail and evidence in the report around what has been done to specifically address engagement with children and young people, rather than simply just saying that they've made every effort and that they will be working with young people to see if they have sufficient support elsewhere. This is a crucial part of the children's commission and it should have been evidenced as to how engagement is taking place. Hopefully this will be addressed in future editions.
It is clear that the lack of engagement with the service shows that young people are not entirely clear as to what support is actually offered. When I recently accessed the commissioner's website, I was surprised at how corporate it was, focusing more on reporting publications, strategies and ambitions rather than helping children access the service and understand what help they can receive. If this is the main point of information and contact for young people, then I can clearly see why the commissioner's office has only been contacted, on average, by less than two people a day. I must admit, I would have expected to see case studies and a child or youth-friendly website that provides more evidence for young people, rather than just a set of contact details, and working examples of how the commissioner has helped people. The YouTube video that they have, which presumably is there to encourage young people to contact them, refers to children in the third person, as 'they', rather than speaking directly to them, and it also highlights being treated unfairly as a cause for concern, but doesn't go into any detail of what 'unfairly' is. The use of relevant and contextual examples here would achieve a much bigger impact. Moreover, this website could provide the starting point for children and young people, and their families, to find out what support is available to them and help them on the journey to accessing it.With this in mind, I would like to see the Welsh Government challenge the children's commissioner on this, and to make it clear to young people and children what help and support they can receive. And I also believe that criteria should be put in place from where the commissioner could be held accountable.
Moving on, I would like to pick up on the point that the commissioner herself has made regarding the Additional Learning Needs and Education Tribunal (Wales) Act 2018 as not always impacting children positively. I believe this is a really crucial and significant finding, and I hope that the commissioner will be able to help provide further insight and inform the education Minister of the Act's failings. I'm interested in seeing the ALN Act amended because I have constituents in my region who have been severely impacted by the legislation, particularly those children who have diabetes. They have found that, because of the ALN Act, it does not allow schools to receive extra funding for a teacher's aid to help those children with diabetes, and then these children are being denied the same opportunities to learn as everyone else.
As those here in the Chamber will be aware, the commissioner has listed five recommendations for the Welsh Government to tackle child poverty seriously, as expressed in the report and added as an amendment to the motion today. Child poverty in Wales is not improving, which is in itself a cause for concern. As many will know, today is the International Day for the Eradication of Poverty, and whilst the recommendation for the Welsh Government to produce a detailed child poverty action plan is a strong recommendation and one that I and certainly my party would support, I feel that the other recommendations are rather indented and lack ambition. Stressing the need for improving quality alongside free school meals is unquantifiable, and it is not clear what quality the commissioner is referring to. In terms of increased investment in play, sport and leisure facilities in youth support, while this is a very notable endeavour—and something I agree with as part of building communities—it does not help a family feed their children or pay their bills, which is where a lot of poverty is manifested. Likewise with free bus travel for children, it is not going to seriously help lift almost a third of children out of poverty in Wales, and it is a pointless recommendation when we don't have the bus service or bus network to make use of such a pass. Similarly, the final recommendation calling for more devolution of power is not going to change this situation.
Ultimately, what I think will help reduce child poverty in Wales is to help people access the rather large resources that have already been made available to them by the UK Government. I have spoken previously in the Chamber about how there is almost £15 billion of unclaimed benefits per year across the United Kingdom, specifically around £1 billion of unclaimed child benefit, and £2.5 billion in child tax credits. Undoubtedly, given the levels of poverty in Wales, I would argue that a considerable amount of this money would be claimable by Welsh families. Moreover, child poverty, whilst having many different causes, can be very often linked to barriers that are in place, stopping families from being able to earn enough money, such as poor public transport provision and a lack of affordable childcare, and we should be urging Welsh Government to look carefully at how to build resilience into the workforce so that they are able to adapt to a changing working environment and encourage constant training of the workforce so that they release better earning potential. Thank you, Llywydd, and, with all this in mind, I recommend that we note the report. Thank you.

Jayne Bryant AC: I'd like to start by thanking the commissioner and her team for the work over the past year, covered in this annual report, and I look forward to exploring some of the issues in the report with the commissioner, in more detail, when she comes to the Children, Young People and Education Committee on 29 November for annual scrutiny.
I'll now focus on some areas highlighted in the report, which resonate strongly with the committee's work. First, the matter that the commissioner describes as the biggest issue affecting children in Wales—child poverty. With 28 per cent of children in Wales living in relative poverty, and the known long-term impacts poverty can have, it's unsurprising that this is a key area of focus for the commissioner. I was pleased to participate in the Equality and Social Justice Committee's recent work looking at the Welsh Government's draft child poverty strategy, and I was grateful for the chair of that committee's invitation to attend. And we have written to that committee, sharing some of the relevant evidence we have gathered as part of our inquiry looking at disabled children and young people's access to education and childcare. A lack of inclusive, accessible education and childcare is having significant impact on parents and carers' ability to work. This, then, has a significant impact on families' incomes and wider mental health and well-being. We will shortly be writing to the Minister for Economy and the Minister for Social Justice on these issues.
Secondly, the commissioner has highlighted issues around social care and radical reform, and, as Members will be aware, we recently published a report on this very issue. We called for 12 radical reforms. These were big, ambitious changes to fundamentally reshape the system to deliver for care-experienced children and what any reasonable parent would want for their own child. In total, we made 27 recommendations.
Since our debate here in July, we have welcomed the Deputy Minister's engagement with our committee, but we know that there's still much more heavy-lifting work to be done to deliver radical change, and we owe it to all the care-experienced children and young people and, in turn, their birth children to deliver radical reform of the care system.
Our report was meaningfully co-produced to an exemplar standard with some of the most marginalised children and young people in Wales. As decision makers, their experiences may make for uncomfortable listening, and I can assure the Chamber, we do not consider our work on this important issue done.
Finally, I'd like to touch on some of the issues in the commissioner's report that chime with the committee's current work, looking at how inclusive and accessible education and childcare is. We're in the middle of taking evidence on this important issue, and we have been speaking directly with children, young people and their families, and it's abundantly clear that disabled children and young people, and those with additional needs, are being failed in many different ways. The commissioner's report highlights a number of policy areas that we also will be exploring as part of this work, including access to public transport, in particular transport to school, childcare and leisure activities. In our report on pupil absence last year, we called for decisions on learner travellers to be driven by individual learner need. We called for the current review of the learner traveller Measure to prioritise a learner-first solution, and to be radical in finding innovative solutions. We will be writing to the Deputy Minister for Climate Change shortly on this important issue.
Moving on to support for children with additional learning needs. The commissioner's report highlights that this is the most common issue raised with their investigation and advice team. Again, this resonated with some of the personal stories we've been hearing as part of our ongoing work. Almost every family we've heard from directly has described the ongoing battle to get the most simple support put in place to help children and young people to be able to receive their right to an education.
We've heard from families who, having been able to secure an individual development plan, find that the recommendations in the plan are not being followed through, making it incredibly difficult for children to access and thrive in an inclusive education setting, whilst others struggle to get appropriate diagnoses or plans put in place.
I note that the commissioner makes a recommendation on professional learning on ALN for teachers. We have heard directly from families, but also teachers and supporting staff, of the need to better understand, and training on, additional learning needs, and this is likely to be an issue that we will be commenting on as part of our work.
There are many more critically important policy areas in this report, and not enough time to discuss them all, but I urge all Senedd Members to read this report and use the commissioner's findings to inform their work. This report is relevant for all of us. Diolch yn fawr.

Laura Anne Jones AC: I'd like to start by thanking the children's commissioner, of course, for her report. Today's debate is an important one, which highlights findings of the children's commissioner's latest report, but unfortunately there is not enough time to talk about all the issues I would like to, but it made for interesting reading, with some worrying statistics, of course, within it.
In the report, the commissioner highlights that the most frequently raised issue is education, understandably, and specifically education support for children with additional learning needs—ALN. Since calling for a review into the equality of access for education for disabled children in our children and young people's committee that we are now undertaking, as the Chair just outlined, we have unearthed a plethora, as she said, of issues and barriers for children with ALN in Wales, on which I hope that we will have the opportunity to debate at length in this Chamber at some point.
I'm glad that within the children's commissioner's report she addresses this, as it is vital that every child in Wales receives the best education that they can have, and that ALN is not a barrier to them. I therefore support the children's commissioner's recommendation and call for ALN training to be a mandatory part of all teacher training. The Welsh Conservatives have called for this for a long time, and we fully believe that this would help in the quality of education, children and young people getting the right help that they individually need and, more importantly, that early intervention that is so crucial. It will also help teachers in ensuring the best education for their students. It is vital that, alongside this aim, the Welsh Government ensures that there is enough money available to schools to upskill existing staff too in this regard, ensuring that teachers can get reactionary training, should a specialist ALN case present itself in a school, as well as general training for all adults who come across children in schools on ALN. What we don't want to see is what 22 different interpretations of this training will look like, due to our 22 local authorities, and a postcode lottery of those who can afford to do it. So, this would need to come from the centre—a strategy and the money from Welsh Government.
I'd also like to hear the Minister's views on how effective she believes the children's commissioner's role actually is and how many children know and how much children are aware about what the commissioner does, and also whether she believes the office is value for money, based on what we are seeing in this report and how much heed the Minister actually pays to the commissioner's recommendations.
I'm also very concerned that the children's commissioner, in this report, has called on the Welsh Government to expedite the work on creating a Welsh gender service for children and young people. I find it very concerning, when there's a myriad pressing issues facing Welsh children and the failures over the last two decades, that this is viewed as a priority. Given Welsh Labour's stance on this sensitive topic, I personally would hope that this area is not devolved to the Senedd, and it's also not realistic to expect it to be. It is also concerning to me that the children's commissioner and this Welsh Government believe that children under 18 should be put on the road to life-changing medication and irreversible surgery at such a tender age. We need to remember these are children and they need to be protected and treated as such, and this is something I would expect from a children's commissioner. We should also respect parents' desire to be involved, as they often know what's best for their children, and it's quite clear that the commission and the Welsh Government would rather bypass concerned parents. It is high time that we focus on the many pressing issues and needs of children instead of trying to promote gender ideology in Wales. Thank you.

Heledd Fychan AS: I thought Jayne Bryant's point was an important one, reminding us all to read the report, because it is relevant to all of us. And I just find myself reflecting, when reading the report and listening to the debate now, on why I am here and why each of us is here. I would hope it's because we want to make a difference. And, for me, child poverty is one of those where we cannot risk not getting this strategy right. Because I remember, prior to being elected here, and working towards eradicating child poverty by 2020, reading the child poverty strategy, which was published in March 2015, and I've been re-reading that and reflecting on it, where the Minister for Communities and Tackling Poverty at the time said,
'This Strategy reflects how tackling child poverty is a cross-Government issue and one which all departments prioritise.'
And similar words were said by the Minister when this debate began today, eight years from that. And we all know what the situation is in terms of child poverty here in Wales.
I would like to thank the commissioner and her team for this important report and their work, but I can't help but reflect in terms of those recommendations: how many times do we have to hear them, how many times do we need to be told them? As Sioned Williams reflected, she is not a sole voice in these recommendations, and, simply put, we are failing, and continuing to fail, so many children and young people. And my question, really, is: what's going to change as a result of this report? What's going to change in terms of the strategy and all those recommendations, because, ultimately, that's how each of us will be held accountable?
I was outside the Senedd last Friday, meeting those who have come from across Wales to protest around the additional learning needs. But it wasn't really a protest; it was a cry for help—a cry for help by desperate parents, carers, with children and young people there as well, who are being let down by a system that's simply not working. A mother shared quite openly with me and others that she'd considered committing suicide, just so that her child could receive the help that that child needs and deserves, and she wasn't a lone voice there. And I was really struck, standing there listening to those stories, and it's really reflected in this report. You read it and you hear that, behind every story, behind every statistic, is that child, young person and family member that's struggling. We have a situation here in Wales at the moment, and it's brought into stark reality when you read the report, that children can't get to school because of poverty, or because they can't access the support they need. And we have lots of strategies in place, we have interventions, but they're not working for the majority of people who we are trying to reach.
So, as I said, my question is a simple one, Minister: what's going to change? When the budget was being discussed and the £900 million cuts, where did child poverty feature in those discussions, and what assurances can you give us that this is an absolute priority for Welsh Government, going forward, and that we're not simply hearing words that have been rehearsed here before?

Hefin David AC: I'm going to focus my contribution on one specific recommendation in the commissioner's report, and that can be found on page 42, and it reads:
'Welsh Government should expedite work committed to in the LGBTQ+ Action Plan on exploring a Welsh Gender Service for children and young people, to replace reliance on commissioning services from NHS England. A new gender identity service for Wales should be established.'
The UN concluding observation that accompanies the recommendations stresses the need to
'Urgently address the long waiting times faced by transgender and gender questioning children in accessing specialised health services, improve the quality of those services, and make sure children’s views are taken into account in all decisions affecting their treatment.'
And I'd say to Laura Anne Jones there's a young man in the gallery today, who will be a constituent of mine and of yours, who'll be very disappointed in what you said. Sean Donovan is a constituent who tried to access exactly those services in his early teens, and was unable to. And only when he was 18 did he access the services that we require, and he brought to may attention the problems therefore that still exist within the access to a Welsh gender service for people like him when he was transitioning. His mother is part of a group of parents campaigning for NHS Wales to provide a pathway for young people in Wales to receive care here in Wales, rather than not to have to use services in England, which themselves are not sufficient. So, again, I say to Laura Anne Jones in the light of what she said, please speak to your and my constituent about this, because I think his story would be worth hearing and might even change your mind on some of these things. I understand the commissioner has met with young people to hear further personal stories about how they've been affected by this issue, and families feel there is a pathway that is developed and ready to be commissioned so that young people in Wales receive the gender-affirming care they need and they deserve. And I will be standing with Sean's family in the pursuance of that care.
It was also committed to in the Welsh Government's LGBTQ+ action plan, which the Deputy Minister's raised, which aims to make Wales the most LGBTQ+-friendly nation in Europe, and in her ministerial foreword to that pioneering document, the Deputy Minister for Social Partnership stated
'We are also committed to improving the pathway for supporting transgender young people in Wales. The Welsh Health Specialised Services Committee, responsible for the service, will look at available evidence to further define the clinical service model for the future, and community voices will be front and centre of this work.'
And, again, I say to the Deputy Minister and to the whole Government, Sean Donovan is there for you to listen to, and hear that story.
We're now eight months on from the action plan's publication, and the children's commissioner has expressed concern in her report that the continued reliance of transgender young people on services in England could be contrary to the action plan's spirit. Therefore, I ask the Minister to mention in her response, either today or perhaps in a written statement soon, about the development and commissioning of this pathway, and the establishment of a new gender identity service for Wales, as recommended in the commissioner's report.

Gareth Davies AS: It's a pleasure to take part in this debate this afternoon, and I thank the children's commissioner, Rocio Cifuentes, and her team for compiling this comprehensive and all-encompassing annual report. I want to keep my remarks fairly short today, as I had the opportunity to meet the children's commissioner last week to discuss the report in detail. But one strand I'd like to delve into is children's mental health, as it's such a big area that goes way beyond the classroom and affects many children's lives. Therefore, it's vital that children and families can have the best access to child and adolescent mental health services and other associated services to best help children who are struggling in all settings, including school and home, so that we can ensure a holistic package of care to give children suffering mental health problems the best possible start in life.
So, I'd be grateful if the Minister could respond to this particular subject in her remarks, outlining the Welsh Government's position on improving children's access to mental health services both in educational settings and in all walks of life, so that we can maximise opportunities and hope to nip these problems in the bud at a foundation level to attempt to prevent issues manifesting into teenage years, adolescence and adulthood. Let's take this opportunity to do right by the children of Wales—the next generation—so that they can get the right care at the right time. Thank you.

Jane Dodds AS: I also want to express my gratitude to the children's commissioner for her work in certainly upholding the rights and welfare of children here in Wales. Her report is an absolutely child-friendly report, it's very easy to read and to understand, and I look forward to the three-year strategy that hopefully will be delivered from April next year.
I just want to look at the issue around looked-after and care-experienced children today. Given the alarming 23 per cent increase in looked-after children in Wales since 2013—a rate far exceeding the per capita rate in England—the issues raised in her report really do impact these children. More relevant to care-experienced young people is the commissioner's focus on the persisting issue of unregistered placements. Many looked-after children continue to reside in unregistered placements, with numbers swelling, despite the illegality of such arrangements, both in Wales and in England. In the radical reform report, which the Chair highlighted earlier, the Association of Directors of Social Services described the challenges they face regarding unregistered placements as 'unprecedented'.
There are many complex reasons why children end up in unregistered care. We have systemic shortages of registered placements, high and complex needs, sudden breakdowns requiring urgent moves. But, fundamentally, this unregistered care often lacks the vital safeguards for these very vulnerable children. We know that the children's commissioner in her report calls for
'accommodation being developed by Regional Partnership Boards',
and I do look forward to hearing from the Minister how that is going to be actioned.
We also have unregulated accommodation, and I know there can be confusion around it, which provides places to live but isnot required to provide care, and they are sadly still legal in Wales, despite being banned in the UK for children under 16. These accommodations can run the gamut from well-meaning to wholly inappropriate, unstable, unsafe premises like hotels or Airbnbs. I do appreciate the Welsh Government's pledge to review unregistered and unregulated placements, yet I share the children's commissioner's concerns that, without cross-departmental action, we will again fail to meet the immediate scale of need.
And, additionally, I was extremely troubled to hear that, following advice from the president of the family division of the High Court, they are no longer obligated to supervise regulation of unregistered placements for children facing deprivation of liberty orders—what they call DoLS—citing a court system that is under immense stress. These are our most vulnerable children, and abdicating oversight puts them at extreme risk of harm. Concerns were already raised by the radical reform report regarding the proliferation of the deprivation of liberty orders for children in Welsh authority care, stemming from a shortage of suitable accommodation. So, the dearth of oversight and the absence of a clear strategy for reducing DoLs are untenable, and we urgently need collective focus from the Welsh Government to elevate care standards and increase affordable, stable homes. I believe that with compassion and commitment to action we can actually transform the care system to serve the best interests of our most vulnerable children.
I would also like to comment on the issue of child poverty. We have heard that the children’s commissioner is clear that the strategy by the Welsh Government is unambitious. It has no targets, it has no timescales, it has no clear way of transforming the actions into what will address the most terrible situation affecting our poorer children. This is what actually underpins everything in this report. We need to ensure that we urgently address the issue of child poverty here in Wales. It has been going on for far, far too long, and we do call for and ask you to think really seriously about the issues that we need to see in place to see the children in Wales not being poor. It’s just unacceptable that, in 2023, we have families struggling to find food for their children, not having adequate accommodation, and children not being able to go to school because of lack of bus fare. So, I would ask the Minister to redouble her efforts to look into child poverty, and I would add on to this that we actually do need a Minister for children. I realise there was one in a previous Government, but we need someone who’s actually going to take responsibility for our children and ensure that they can address that really current and persistent issue of child poverty. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Several people have mentioned the impact of child poverty and I'd like to pick up on the statistic that 45 per cent of seven to 11-year-olds worry about not having enough to eat. Because I think this is actually more complicated than just saying, ‘This is a problem', given that these are primary school children who will all have access to a free breakfast, and in many cohorts will have access to a free lunch as well. Yet we are told that 45 per cent of them—nearly half—are worrying about not having enough to eat. So, what is the issue here? Is it that the food that they are being provided in school isn’t good enough? I note that the children’s commissioner wants to see improved quality alongside roll-out of universal free school meals. She makes no reference to the need to remove ultra-processed food from the food served in schools, even though we know that that is linked to obesity, which is raised by many professionals working with children. And we also know that there are potential risks of not just obesity, but long-term issues like cancer, diabetes and dementia. So, that is a major public health issue for me, but I think we really do need to understand: are the people who most need to get the free offer actually taking it up? Are they not arriving in school in time to get the free breakfast? And for what reason are they not eating the free lunch? So, I think a lot more work needs to be done on understanding this before we try and chuck more money at it.

Jane Dodds AS: Will you take an intervention? Thank you so much. I really don't accept your position. I have the greatest of respect for you, but children are not in school for 52 weeks of the year. They're only in school for 36 weeks, so what is going to happen during the rest of the time they're not in school? We need to address child poverty. I think it is really, really that simple, so I hope you would agree that it's not complex, it's quite simple. Thank you.

Jenny Rathbone AC: I certainly agree with you that they are only in school for 39 weeks—it's 39 weeks—but I still think we need to understand the complexities of this a lot more. So, the numbers who worry about not having enough to eat are reduced by the time the child becomes older, and that's presumably because they have more ability to do something about these things. We know from other surveys that two in 10 young people are going to bed hungry tonight, but the reasons for that may be quite complex, because children are not normally managing their household budget. If there's addiction in the household, that could be a reason why there's not enough food in the house, and if gender-based violence is present—which we know is endemic—that's also another issue where people are not being fed properly. So, I think there's a real concern there, and it would be great to hear a lot more from the children's commissioner about what she thinks about that.
Given that children are reliant on being able to get help if things aren't going well at home, or they're being bullied in school, it's really important that the services are there in school to ensure that young people can get help from a trusted adult. So, I think it's concerning, and I'd like to understand a bit more about why the number who think that they can get help in school if they are unhappy, worried or unable to cope, has gone down from 73 per cent in 2017 to 62 per cent. So, I think that's an issue and a challenge, and I would like to know what collaboration the children's commissioner is having with Estyn, with local education authorities or counselling services to ensure that all young people know they can get help in schools.
Turning to her comments on disability and the number of cases brought to her office, it's undoubtedly the case that people are doubly disadvantaged if school settings do not adjust the curriculum offer to meet the needs of the child, rather than expecting the child to fit into whatever is on offer for the majority. She's absolutely right to raise the flag on the numbers of exclusions—and I share the children's commissioner's concern about the need to change the statutory guidance so that we're not getting schools excluding people who are inconvenient and getting in the way. And that, of course, must include Gypsy, Roma and Traveller communities, who she highlights as one of the groups who are most likely to have that. But, given the importance that she attaches to the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, I really want to know why she doesn't appear to think that children's right to know about their bodies and what a good relationship looks like and the importance of respecting each other and our different races, sexual preferences and gender identity—it's something that she seems to be backpedalling on in terms of saying that relationships and sexuality education needs to be adjusted to meet the needs of that community. I think all children, including those who are home educated—and I completely share her concern here that we must have no invisible children—every child must receive a suitable education, which is a fundamental right, and every child must be seen. And so I think those are really important messages for various Ministers going forward.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The Minister to reply to the debate now. Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd, and thank you to all Members for their contributions to this debate on the children's commissioner's annual report. It's clear that the Senedd shares a commitment to the rights of children and young people in Wales and that those rights continue to shape our work. And Members have identified a number of important issues that have arisen from the report, from the recommendations from the children's commissioner. Of course, the children's commissioner will value the comments, the questions, the points that have been made today in this debate, as well as ourselves, as a Government, as we look to respond to those recommendations later on in the year. But I do want to start on that all-important issue that was reflected in Plaid Cymru's amendment and was reflected from contributions across the Chamber today, that we must, again, state our shared aspiration. Our shared aspiration, led by the Welsh Government, is that we want a Wales where no child lives in poverty. So, addressing the issues that have been expressed across the Chamber in the debate today about the need to tackle child poverty is clearly a priority. It's a priority for the Welsh Government, and, despite the extraordinary pressures on our budget—we've heard today again—tackling poverty and inequality will remain central drivers in the development of our policies and programmes across Government. And, of course, this is quite clearly stated in our draft child poverty strategy. Every Welsh Minister taking responsibility for improving outcomes, again recognising the limitations in terms of our powers, in that so many of the powers in terms of tackling child poverty lie with the UK Government. But I think it is important to recognise that we do have that duty to publish and report under our Children and Families (Wales) Measure 2010. We have that duty. And I reported, of course, on progress in December and then launched that 12-week consultation on the draft child poverty strategy. And what was important is to actually get that draft strategy out. We did consult with over 3,300 children and young people, engaging their help to develop the revised child poverty strategy that we have consulted on. And young people told us what will make the biggest difference to their lives, and I think the draft strategy lays out what we heard, what we're doing about it and where we can focus our efforts on creating a more equal Wales.
So, the final child poverty strategy will be published by the end of this year and then the real work starts. It's important that we are delivering this with our partners, delivering the strategy, putting in place a framework for evidence to demonstrate—

Sioned Williams AS: Will you give way, Minister?

Jane Hutt AC: —transparent accountability and measuring progress. Yes.

Sioned Williams AS: I appreciate that you say that work is going to be done on the draft child poverty strategy, but how are you going to measure progress without targets?

Jane Hutt AC: That important question has come up and, indeed, we addressed it, actually, during our pre-consultation exercise. I gave that commitment that we need to have that transparent accountability to show that we are producing and delivering on those outcomes. I've given this commitment, and it's in the draft strategy, that we are exploring independent advice on suitable national poverty indicators, data availability and a monitoring framework. And we're consulting on that work. Also, this is about accountability and producing a full progress report against the child poverty strategy every three years—that's required under the Children and Families (Wales) Measure 2010. Again, that includes involving people with lived experience, including children and young people, to tell us what we're achieving and how we're achieving it. So, the programme for government sets out how we will deliver for children and young people who are living in poverty, this 10-year strategy, which is going to rebalance actions towards preventing poverty and mitigating the worst impacts of poverty.
Now, I want to turn to some of the points that have been made, really specific and important points that have been made by colleagues today and to recognise that the Chair of the Children, Young People and Education Committee, Jayne Bryant, Laura Anne Jones and Joel James all made this point, responding to the recommendation about the importance for young people and children with additional learning needs, that the responsibility for ensuring that learners' needs are identified and provided for are the core of the professional standards for teaching and leadership, recognising that we have a national mission with a commitment to establishing a culture of mutual responsibility in relation to professional learning, and recognising also that local authorities, of course, are responsible for ensuring suitable education provision for learners in their areas, including those with ALN. Mark.

Mark Isherwood AC: Thank you. Specifically on ALN, do you share my concern that I'm now beginning to receive cases from parents, where neurodiverse pupils, including autistic pupils, are being denied individual development plans on the basis that IDPs are only based on ability, not condition, because they're bright and because they mask well despite the needs they still have, which are remaining uncovered?

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you, Mark. I know that you will have heard, in my opening remarks, that I was responding to some of the ways in which we're addressing responses to many of the recommendations in the children's commissioner's report, that you know we're developing, we've committed to develop this consistent, Wales-wide approach to improving neurodivergence services, and, of course, this is also reflected in terms of our response for children and young people with ALN.
I think it's also important to recognise, as Jayne Bryant did, and Jane Dodds, that this is also an opportunity for us to reflect again on all the work that's been led by the Deputy Minister for Social Services in our road map for the transformation of children's services programme. That road map includes those actions and timescales to deliver the programme. And the transformation of children's services programme is critical to the radical reform agenda that we have and you will be very aware of. We are meeting with care-experienced young people on a regular basis to take account of this, and, of course, it's very much also led and backed by the First Minister.
Gareth Davies, I'm glad you mentioned the mental health and well-being issues, because we're continuing to monitor the whole-school approach in line with recommendations in terms of the papers that were produced by Public Health Wales. We will be looking at that in terms of the whole-school approach framework, very much also engaging and led by the Deputy Minister for Mental Health and Well-being.
This shows, I think—and we move on to housing—that this is a cross-Government response to every recommendation. I think the points that Jane Dodds has made in terms of the safe housing of vulnerable children are key in terms of developing suitable placements and that work that's being done on a regional level as well.
I would finally say, as I want to thank Hefin David for his question and welcome Sean Donovan here today in the Chamber, we continue to work towards our commitment in the LGBTQ+plan to improve support for children and young people. Of course, it is an action in the LGBTQ+ plan to look at the commitment to the pathway for gender identity services. I know that, at the last meeting with the children's commissioner, the Deputy Minister for Social Partnership asked if she could facilitate a meeting with young people, and I think that's a message to Sean and to Hefin David today on behalf of your constituents regarding the gender identity pathway for young people. So, that's a commitment that we make as a Welsh Government.
Finally, responsibility for children's rights lies with every member of the Cabinet. We have a duty placed on us, as Welsh Ministers, to give due regard to the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. I hope you will join me in thanking the commissioner for the report, look forward to working closely with her office and supporting the needs of all children. I'd like to thank Members for their contributions today. I urge you to support our motion. Our response will be published by the First Minister to the children's commissioner's recommendations on 30 November, and the comments from this debate will help inform that response. Diolch yn fawr.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The proposal is to agree amendment 1. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There are objections. We will, therefore, defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

9. Voting Time

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, we will move immediately to voting time. The first vote this afternoon is on the LCMon the Levelling-up and Regeneration Bill. So, I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Julie James. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 43, no abstentions, 13 against, and therefore the motion is agreed.

Item 7. LCM on the Levelling-up and Regeneration Bill, tabled in the name of Julie James: For: 43, Against: 13, Abstain: 0
Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The next votes are on item 8 on the debate on the Children's Commissioner for Wales's annual report 2022-23. I call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan. Open the vote. The vote is tied and, therefore, I will exercise my casting vote against the amendment. Therefore, the result of that vote is that there were 28 in favour, no abstentions, and 29 against, and therefore the amendment is not agreed.

Item 8. Debate: The Children’s Commissioner for Wales’ Annual Report 2022-23. Amendment 1, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan: For: 28, Against: 28, Abstain: 0
As there was an equality of votes, the Llywydd used her casting vote in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii).
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: I now call for a vote on the motion without amendment, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 56, no abstentions, and none against. Therefore, the motion is agreed.

Item 8. Debate: The Children’s Commissioner for Wales’ Annual Report 2022-23. Motion: For: 56, Against: 0, Abstain: 0
Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: And that brings an end to our voting and brings proceedings to a close for today.

The meeting ended at 18:35.

QNR

Questions to the First Minister

Ken Skates: Will the First Minister make a statement on electrification of the north Wales mainline?

Mark Drakeford: A Conservative Party conference announcement of electrification of the north Wales main line has quickly unravelled to become simply an 'illustration' of what might take place. The Welsh Government has no confidence that investment of this sort will actually materialise while the current UK administration remains in office.

Natasha Asghar: What is the Welsh Government doing to encourage more people to set up businesses in South Wales East?

Mark Drakeford: Our Business Wales service provides individuals and entrepreneurs with access to a wide range of information, guidance and support, both financial and non-financial, to help set up new businesses.

Tom Giffard: Will the First Minister make a statement on the provision of public transport in South Wales West?

Mark Drakeford: Our national transport delivery plan sets out a range of projects and programmes that will help deliver better more reliable and attractive public transport services across South West Wales and beyond, including the Swansea bay and west Wales metro.

Gareth Davies: What assessment has the First Minister made of the benefits of community assets for people in Denbighshire?

Mark Drakeford: Community assets provide a vital focus for community activities, public services, and as a base for volunteers. We provide advice, guidance and financial support through partners such as Cwmpas and the Community Land Advisory Service Wales. Residents of Denbighshire are among the beneficiaries of these actions.